Talk:Common Era

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No proof presented that "CE" is used to abbreviate "Christian Era"[edit]

I reverted the following addition by John Maynard Friedman:

The usage Christian Era for CE is also observed.[1]

The cited Collins Dictionary merely establishes that "Christian Era" corresponds numerically to AD/CE and BC/BCE dates. It does not establish that when one encounters the abbreviation "CE" the author was thinking to him/herself "this is an abbreviation for Christian Era". It does not establish that any author ever consciously chose "CE" as an abbreviation for "Christian Era". Jc3s5h (talk) 12:26, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

I am content with that. I was trying perhaps too hard to intercept the anon editor who was POV pushing, with a small concession. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 15:43, 12 July 2019 (UTC)


British Museums and BC/BCE[edit]

True of the BM, but not Cornish museums[1] os the Science Museum Group[2] or the Royal Museums at Greenwich[3] or University College London's Museums[4] etc. A lot still use BC/AD but I've no idea what the proportion is --Doug Weller talk 16:21, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm seeing BC straight away on that Cornish link?! The UCM link is Greenwich repeated, but the Petrie Museum of Egyptian Archaeology, part of UCM, most certainly still use BC. Johnbod (talk) 22:39, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
Observing web pages that use one or other (or even both) systems and drawing a conclusion is wp:SYN. If the proposed sentence about the BM is to stand, we need at least a statement from the BM saying that this is their policy (which I doubt, given that they also have Jewish artefacts). The second claim that "most other museums do so" is a major assertion that would need an equally major citation to support it – for example a peer-reviewed journal article where the researchers can show that they have surveyed the large majority of museums in the UK. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 17:42, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
There is such a statement somewhere on their site, but being the BM, it is unfindable. Don't worry, they'd use it for Jewish objects, except these don't seem to be "Jewish" as far as the BM is concerned until the 1st century, but "Hebrew", as here or "Judaean", both of course with BC. I've added re the National Trust, English Heritage have a useful, somwhat defiant glossary note I'll add. The old text "In 2002, England and Wales introduced the BCE/CE notation system into the official school curriculum." was a ridiculous overstatement - an advisory panel on religious education had recommended introducing it, which 15 years later only some LEAs had done, per the ref I've added. It was this discussion that led me here. I must say I have the impression that the tide of CE is ebbing somewhat - even in the US the MMA, Cleveland Museum of Art, Getty, LACMA all still use BC. If you don't have those by now you've pretty much lost the battle. Johnbod (talk) 22:34, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
This is Wikipedia. I don't have a "battle" to establish anything: my aim is an article that is soundly based on reliable sources. Material in the article should report organisations' policy statements. It is not permissible for editors to look at a web page or even 100 web pages and decide that, in their judgement alone, that it means X or Y. It was for this reason that I reverted your addition of the BM: the cite you gave was not for a policy statement that would support the assertion you made but only an example of usage.
It may not be your intention but you are giving the appearance of POV pushing and wp:nothere. Please stop until you have secured consensus for these controversial edits, per wp:brd. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 08:47, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
Not YOU, those in the US waging what has been a battle in the culture wars for a couple of decades. A remarkable misreading! Best of luck trying to accuse me of POV pushing and wp:nothere. Johnbod (talk) 12:25, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
Calm down.I agree that we need independent sources, not our own research into what musueums, etc do or don't do. I tried to post this 2 days ago but probably didn't notice I'd hit an edit conflict. (unsigned by user:Doug Weller).
This part of the article is now so sourced, but of course much of the rest remains refed to random web examples of usage. Perhaps you should tackle those. The article still falls some way short of neutrality imo. Johnbod (talk) 14:17, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
Exactly the same test applies so, for those that you have spotted, please at least tag as not in citation given (as per discussion above, an example of use is not evidence of organisation policy). Any that can't be repaired in a reasonable time should be deleted. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:13, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
I've removed one completely unrefed and dubious bit, but otherwise I'll leave that you and Doug since you are so bothered about it. Johnbod (talk) 16:36, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Common Era[edit]

You reverted my edit on Common Era. I quote from two well-known dictionaries. There is nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. If you want to remove it, you need to seek consensus, not me. If you do not agree with those dictionaries, please contact the editors. I didn't write those dictionaries, I just quote. I can’t change Cambridge and Merriam-Webster, I am sorry. However I leave it to you, you seem to be very religious (no problem for me), but I don't want to waste my time about religious issues, good luck to you, Leopard (talk) 11:32, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

[The foregoing was moved from my talk page because this is the proper place to discuss it. Jc3s5h (talk) 14:37, 11 August 2019 (UTC)]

Jc3s5h was correct to revert it. This article is about the topic, Common Era. It is not about the abbreviation "CE". --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 15:42, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
You are absolutely right, John, the article is about the topic "Common Era" and not about the abbreviation "CE", but I did not say anything about "CE", I only added a third synonymous explanation of the abbreviation "BCE" and two sources, well known and reliable as far as I know, (Jc3s5h, thanks for moving my comments from your talk page) Leopard (talk) 18:44, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
If this article is not about the term "Christian era", then we could shift the issue to the "Anno Domini" article by replacing
at the beginning of the "Common Era" article with
{{Redirect|BCE|before the Christian era|Anno Domini|other uses|BCE (disambiguation)}}
Then, if consensus can be achieved, a statement could be added to "Anno Domini" that Cambridge & Merriam-Webster assert that BCE can be an abbreviation for "before the Christian era". It seems a pity we're not in a position to describe how frequent this usage is, whether it's common, occasional, or rare. I have an opinion, but my opinion doesn't matter. Jc3s5h (talk) 19:25, 11 August 2019 (UTC)