Talk:Hoe (food)

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Nanshu (talk · contribs)'s edits[edit]

I checked a couple of news articles about Busan Hoe Expo 2002 and Jo Yeongje's campaign for language cleansing. As both events happened in Busan, maybe the problem is specific to there. --Nanshu 22:16, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

afaik, sashimi, when used in korean, refers to the japanese dish in japanese restaurants. koreans generally do not refer to the gochujang-dipped, thicker-cut, lettuce-wrapped hwe as "sashimi." it's a different dish. Appleby 00:08, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

From the very beginning, I'm talking about Saengseonhoe (~=Sashimi). --Nanshu 23:04, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

As far as I know, we don't distinguish Japanese raw fish and Korean raw fish in Korea, at least in the langugae. In colloquial language, "hoe" and "chobap" are more widely preferred to "sashimi" and "sushi", which are used by Japanese restaurant in Korea, probably to show they're Japanese for real. "Sashimi" is also a slang for the sharp knife used by criminal gangs to stab people.
Dictionary definition of hoe is raw flesh or raw vegetable. But when we say hoe, it generally means Saengseonhoe(raw fish). We also have raw beef as a dish, which we call yukhoe to disambiguate.
--Puzzlet Chung 02:39, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

The Hoe-Sashimi controversy[edit]

Nanshu has added the following highly POV paragraph to the end of the article:

In South Korea, sashimi-related Japanese terms became a target of linguistic purism due to Korean anti-Japanism. In 2005, Professor Cho Young-je of Pukyong National University, who made researches on hoe, began a campaign to replace "sasimi" (사시미) and other Japanese words with Korean ones (actually, some of them were Sino-Korean). In 2002, Busan held "Busan Hoe Expo. 2002" even though "sashimi" was better known for English-speaking people and only a farming tool or a "whore" came to their minds when thinking of "hoe".

Since I have made no deep research into the issue, I can only speak from my own experience: When I first ate the dish back in early 2002, it was only referred to as "hoe" and never as "sashimi" and has been since the countless times I have had it ("sashimi" in Korean is the Japanese dish.) So if a nation-wide linguistic purge of the Japanese term did take place, it must have been earlier than 2002 and definitely earlier than 2005!

In addition, the last phrase is plain wrong since Korean hoe /hø/ is not at all pronounced as English hoe /həʊ/.

I tried to rephrase this to make it NPOV but failed to salvage any information from it. I say we simply remove it. -- Himasaram 10:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Saengseonhoe is Saengseonhoe, Sashimi is Sashimi. That's all. According to Annals of Joseon Dynasty,[1]Koreans already had eaten Saengseonhoe such name of 어회(魚膾). Apart from this,It's very nonsence to raise a problem to linguistic purism or Sino-Korean word use. It seemed to be some Japanese nationalists consider Korean's Koreaized renaming from Japanese loanword as cultural steal from Japan. Wow, how silly they are. If they were right, Those which highly protect their language from loanword- Turkish,Icelandic,Chinese are all culture stolers. aren't they? Chinese renamed America's computer as "電腦" Icelandic as "Tölva" Turkish as "Bilgisayar" Were they really steal America's culture,and denied the fact that American's invention? so how about Japanese? Modern Japanese borrowed huge words from Western languages not use origin word, but translated by Sino-japanese.

  • lawnatureworld ニ於ル如ク human worldgovern シテ居ル
  • 法律自然世界ニ於ル如ク人類世界統治シテ居ル

According your strange opinions, this may be undestood Japanese's cultural steal from western languages and culture,and Sino-Japanese itself cultural steal from China, aren't they? Other ways think,you japaneses prefers the word milk as ミルク than 牛乳 in colloquial use. Someday, a Japanese scholar told that it should be used as Japanese word 牛乳 not loan word ミルク because care the too many use of katakana word.(日本語の乱れ). By the way, a american man scrapped the article, and insist like this, "Milk is wide known word in the world, and Japanese have kept use the word. so, it's anti-America linguistic purism. and, 牛乳 itself not a pure Japanese word but sino-Japanese word. That's nonsense. He raised such 牛乳飲み比べ大会(Competitive drinking milk) and said gyuunyuu is bizarre sound to English speaker. What about this? That's what you Japanese nationalists who fall into the anti-Korean obsessionalneurosis are doing.Iziizi (talk) 03:26, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Food and drink Tagging[edit]

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Sennen goroshi's vandalism[edit]

"Gangbyeon hoeeum"

Sennen goroshi (talk · contribs)'s vandalism campaign continue on Korean-related articles that I previously edited, and likely link to Japan that he cares, or I would like to edit. He and I are on some kind of unofficial probation by admin, User:Theresa knott, so I could not edit any article he edits within 5 days. However, the probation is to prevent from disputing each other, but he's using the rule and gaming the system to provoke me to breach the probation like he did and got blocked.

For example, he blanked cited information at Empress Myeongseong and deleted lead section Korean independence movements without any reason. In any case, the user did not read this article properly and see the early 19th Korean painting, which depicts Koreans eating hoe. The title is also "Gangbyeon hoeeum", literally "Eating hoe near a river".Image:Kim.Deuksin-Gangbyeon.hoeeum.jpg The painter, Kim Deuksin is a Joseon royal court painter and regarded important figure in Korean art history, so I believe Sennen would not dare to doubt about the painting. If he continues this vandalism and would not restore the previously blanked info from the aformentioned aritlces, well see what would be rewarded for his disruptions.--Caspian blue (talk) 13:25, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for showing that painting, I think the sanctions against us are clearly not working, and are actually restricting both of us from editing wikipedia in a constructive manner. But in the spirit of good will, compromise etc, I will revert my edit, until I have time to verify the "hoe" issue. Sennen goroshi (talk) 13:49, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Can you provide a source where the title of this painting is given (and also where the painting is hung today)? Also, is there a source showing that in that century, this food comprised uncooked rather than cooked fish? Badagnani (talk) 18:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
If you follow the link, you will find the needed info in Korean. The picture by Kim Deuksin is stored at Gansong Art Museum.--Caspian blue (talk) 18:22, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
BTW Caspian, I would appreciate it if you did not refer to my edits as vandalism, your tone is overly aggressive and does not help any content disputes that we may be having. Sennen goroshi (talk) 12:01, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm. you still has not restored the lead section of Korean independence movement and others. And you left many factual errors to the articles that you edited in the past 2 weeks, so the labeling is valid as long as you do not fix them. I've been writing a history and origin section. That would be twofold of the current content. You believe eating raw fish originated in Japan, but even that practice came from China according to my sources, and in namasu (sashimi is one form of it) says so. Besides, some Japanese nationalist editors had vandalized the page many times for a while, so you picked the really good one. Please refrain from doing such things before editing. I want to believe that you would be different from those kind of people. Best regards. --Caspian blue (talk) 12:24, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Over two years has passed and no one noticed the mistake concerning Kim Deuksin's painting yet. The translated title of the painting should be "Carousing near a river", not "Eating hoe near a river" as suggested above. Although the characters' pronunciation is the same, the hoe of the official title (江邊會飮) is not 膾 (which is the character for the dish) but 會 (which means meet(ing) and, if combinded with 飮, "drinking together"). Indeed, looking at the painting, it is hard to tell if the fish some of the fishermen are sharing is cooked or not. It should be further added that we can not acritically assume that the title which the painting is referred to nowadays is the one used when it was painted, unless it was inscribed by the author on the paining itself, which is not the case. Sorciopeloso (talk) 15:30, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Etymology[edit]

What is the etymology/origin of the Korean word "hoe"? Badagnani (talk) 18:01, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

It is from the Chinese character, .--Caspian blue (talk) 18:23, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Historically, were all hoe dishes raw? If so, are there old Korean sources (cookbooks or similar) that give definitions of hoe as it was prepared hundreds of years ago? Because the Wiktionary definition of that character doesn't state "raw," just "minced." Badagnani (talk) 00:17, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the wikidictionary should be implemented. --Caspian blue (talk) 00:28, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, often the definition of a particular character in Chinese isn't the same definition that's used in Japan, Korea, or Vietnam. And even within China a character can change its meaning over time. So I'm just raising questions, which would need confirmation with sources. Badagnani (talk) 00:45, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

That's why I said, the dictionary should be implemented. You make me say the same thing repeatedly. --Caspian blue (talk) 01:33, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I can't make sense of what you're saying. In English, one can't say that a dictionary can be "implemented." So I'm not sure what it is you're trying to say. Can you please be more clear? Badagnani (talk) 01:35, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

History section[edit]

Can anyone insert the below content to article with some credit of my name or this diff http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AHoe_(dish)&diff=233831894&oldid=233831253 because I can't work as such at this time. This is only third of what I have to translate from Korean sources, but still be useful for the article. Thanks in advance --Caspian blue (talk) 00:21, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

This seems good, but I think it needs to be examined more deeply how the term kuai was used in China, and exactly which foods it referred to, and whether they were always raw. Badagnani (talk) 00:47, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Would you add them first please? I could not find such source at this time that you want to know. --Caspian blue (talk) 00:50, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Sjschen has confirmed that 膾 does imply "raw"-ness in Chinese, despite Wiktionary's definition. Badagnani (talk) 00:59, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Please, can everyone read this before we continue discussion? I would like to hear responses from our contributors about this article, and how it squares with what they know about the consumption of raw fish in the cuisines of China, Korea, and Japan. Badagnani (talk) 01:01, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
That needs more time for me to read and analysize the content because this article is about "Korean dish". If you're not interested in helping me, I would ask it to another. Thanks--Caspian blue (talk) 01:06, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
I asked everyone to read the article, and give their thoughts about it, in good faith. Some of what you are implying goes counter to what is found therein. Badagnani (talk) 01:07, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
A further source, with very detailed history, may be found at zh:生魚片. One last one may be found here (see the second to last post, which lists a few sources that could also be considered). Badagnani (talk) 01:09, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Who is the everyone? I politely asked you to add them because I could not currently edit the article, but you demand other things to me. Besides, I fully stick to my source, so if the source conflict to my source, you can add the issue by yourself because I CAN"T edit the article as I said. (I have had no time to read the article). --Caspian blue (talk) 01:13, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
As with everything else on Wikipedia, there's no hurry. Just chime in once you've had a chance to read it. Badagnani (talk) 01:16, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
No thanks. If I need some help, I would go to Sjchen for the next time. I'm in hurry so asked you, regardless of our long conflicts. --Caspian blue (talk) 01:28, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Massive blanking[edit]

Can someone please restore the discussion blanked massively in this edit? I don't wish to enter an edit war, and it's important that the history of this discussion be preserved. Thanks in advance, Badagnani (talk) 01:33, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Badagnani's false accusation[edit]

Now, you're abusing the term "massive blanking" again. You're warned for such false accusation many times. I said, I left the diff pertaining to the information at the talk that I added, and you falsely accused me of blanking massive information that I inserted. You have to take the responsibility. --Caspian blue (talk) 01:37, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

History section[edit]

I have added a detailed history section explaining how it was introduced from China to Korea. And thank you very much to Badagnani for improving it. Sennen goroshi (talk) 03:36, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for adding my expansion on the section, but you just added it as if that is your credit. And then falsely accused me here and there. That is not good practice. --Caspian blue (talk) 03:46, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
I think it needs much expansion, from old Korean sources. Right now it relies primarily on Chinese ones. Much more on the Chinese history can be found at Kuai (dish). Interactions between Japanese namasu and sashimi and Korean raw-fish traditions over the past several hundred years (including during the Japanese occupation of Korea) could also be explored. Did Japanese during that time attempt to teach Koreans that their hoe was of Japanese origin? Or did the Japanese themselves assume this? This kind of thing should be explored, through the location of relevant sources. The assumption Sennen goroshi made (and probably others as well) that hoe must have come from Japanese sashimi, turned out to be wrong, as it was based on the assumption that it couldn't have come from China, as the Chinese eschew raw fish. We know now that, at least in ancient times, that wasn't true. Badagnani (talk) 03:44, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Badagnani - Yeah, I am a little worried about the history section at the moment, perhaps with a few more sources, I might trust it a little more, but at the moment, it seems quite close to original research. But hopefully when a few more sources this could become a good article. Sennen goroshi (talk) 03:57, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
See Kuai (dish), with many Chinese historical sources being added in actual Chinese text. Badagnani (talk) 04:09, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Wrong Romanization[edit]

Actually, Hal-ah hoe is supposed to be Hwal-uh hoe. That's how they say it in South Korea.--김무선 (talk) 05:53, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Edited romanization for Hal-ah hoe.--김무선 (talk) 05:57, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

IPA?[edit]

Unfortunately, the link target does not contain the symbol employed (Voiceless bilabial fricative, ɸ, IPA 126) which means that either

  1. the letter used is wrong or
  2. the link target page is wrong (the character should be covered but is missing by mistake).

I tend to assume the former as according to Voiceless bilabial fricative the character (rather: the corresponding sound) is not used in Korean. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.247.58.197 (talk) 03:11, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

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