From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Italians as an ethnic group[edit]

Italians are one of the most multiethnical nations in the world, not a unique and homogeneous ethnic group. Liviojavi (talk) 09:46, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

What do you mean?

Well, Italians are an ethnic group and nation. It is pretty much a cultural a political tie one can have with Italy. Yes they are actually homogeneous because even though they have diverse cultures among the regions of Italy, they can always relate to each other. You are pretty much saying Italy is like the United States in terms of diversity and so on. This is very inaccurate. However, in theory, since Italian citizenship pretty much makes you "Italian" then I can see why you say it would be "multi ethnic." --Scarslayer01 (talk) 17:12, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

The problem here is that people in general but definitely more specifically Italians have a serious misunderstanding regarding the difference between Ethnic identity vs National identity. Italy has always had a problem with assimilationism, most terribly exemplified during fascism. The fact that notions of Italian identity are so uncritical on Wikipedia is very problematic, and it's very frustrating we can't get a more inclusive definition of Italian identity here without constant reversions. To help explain, Switzerland has four indigenous ethnolinguistic identities, and one national identity. They are not mutually conflicting, but to ignore the four communities is deeply problematic. But in the case of Italy, fragile notions of national identity seem to be rigidly protected here from criticism. We have dozens of languages in Italy and dozens of identities, all of which are older than the creation of the Italian nation-state.Paolorausch (talk) 21:29, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
I have updated the article to reflect the linguistic diversity of the Italian nationality identity. If anyone has anything to add I would appreciate it! Thanks! Paolorausch (talk) 12:19, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Now someone is trying to say that there are 60 million Italians living in Italy. If this article is speaking of ethnic Italians, then this would be false because there are also others living in the country who are either immigrants or descendants of immigrants that are not ethnic Italians. In regards to Italians in Italy, it should say 55 million because it's talking about ethnicity and citizenship (Not all Italian citizens are ethnic Italians) according to ISTAT. Not really sure why everyone is just putting info in without taking a quick look to verify what they see actually makes sense. Just because someone lives in Italy or was born there does not always mean they are Italians. --Scarslayer01 (talk) 01:20, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Is it fine now? The source clearly states 55,551,000 are citizens while the other ~5,000,000 are foreigners. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 01:42, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, a lot of people have been playing around with the population of Italians and it is no longer funny. I still find it strange because while this article refers to ethnic Italians, most statistics done in Italy only refer to Italian (citizen of Italy) and foreigner (those who are not citizens of Italy). So technically you can be an ethnic Italian but if you do not have Italian citizenship, most organizations such as ISTAT would regard you as a foreigner. I believe we should add that somewhere in this article to prevent the confusion and misleading references. - signed by anon IP

An estimated 800,000 Chileans have any Italian ancestry, considering neighboring Argentina has over half their population of Italian ancestry (same with Uruguay) and 1,400,000 Peruvians in a country further north are of Italian ancestry as well. The total percentage of Italian-Paraguayans are 20% and Italians are known to settled in Bolivia, but about 2 to 5 percent of Bolivians are their descendants. (talk) 04:23, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

Not more multiethnical than, for example, UK, France or Germany. We live in a multiethnical era, which countries are homogeneous? Only smaller ones like San Marino (ethnic Italian) perhaps. Just a little reminder, Italians from, for example, Tuscany, aren't ethnically different than, for example, Marche or Abruzzo like some people think. Ethnicities in Italy are: Italians AND minority ones like Germans in Trentino, Croats in Molise, or Griko and Arbëreshë in the South plus obviously recent immigrants from North African countries or others. --MarcusVetus 16:44, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

More precise definition of Italian identity[edit]

Many people have brought up the question of Italian ethnonational identity. Namely the underlying problem that Italian is a national identity, and ethnonational identity and also a heritage identity.

For example, let's discuss the issue of the large Italo/Siculo-Arbëresh diaspora. Are these an Albanian Diaspora? An Italic Diaspora? An Arbëresh diaspora? Yes. The answer is simple yes because nationality and ethnicity are patently different identities being confused here in this article in a misleading way. We need to be precise and inclusive in our definition of Italianness in order to not intentionally or unintentionally engage in the nationalisation of history. Italian identity has been well studied, it is clear that it has for most of history in some ways existed and in other ways not existed and as of now is currently in a process of evolution and development. The presence of many separatist, federalist, regionalist and autonomist parties and identities show that we must be critical of Italian identity to make a fair assessment of it's complexities and nuances to readers making their first acquaintance with the complexities of the Italian Republic.Paolorausch (talk) 16:59, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

I don't understand where you see those "many" separatist etc... parties. Those few parties left (if there are still left) are all basically inactive. Once again there is an attempt to make Italy like the United States, more identically diverse that what actually is. Regionalism is present in Italy like it's present in France, Germany and other parts of Europe. That being said regional differences like food or folkloristic feasts don't compromise Italian cultural unity like many people think but strengthen it in fact, many national dishes are made with products took from different regions. About languages, in my family i've people who also speak a dialect but they feel fully Italian. For personal experience the only people i hear to speak dialect only are the older ones who live in smaller settlements around the mountains, where media and informations still have problems to reach the houses. This is a line took from the Italian Wikipedia about Italian language: "Secondo i più recenti dati statistici (La lingua italiana, i dialetti e le lingue straniere, Istat, 2012) l'84,8% degli italiani parla in modo esclusivo o prevalente l'italiano, il 10,7% lo alterna con una lingua locale, mentre solo il 1,7% si esprime esclusivamente nell'idioma locale". Translated: According to the most recent statistical data 84,8% speak Italian exclusively, 10,7% speak Italian with a local language and only 1,7% with only local language. --MarcusVetus 15:22, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
Best to keep it simple. ETHNIC Italians are people declaring themselves Italian regardless of homeland (e.g. diasporans from Tuscany in the US, some locals to Croatian Istria, and likewise, diasporans in the US from Croatia's ethnic Italian minority). NATIONALITY is the relationship with state, namely citizenship, so this would be anyone with an Italian passport or in some other way viewed by the Italian government as being one of its subjects. For this, ethnicity and heritage are not relevant. My uncle (i.e. I am from Bulgaria) has had an Italian passport since the early 1990s and he has been able to renew it every ten years without fail after returning permanently to Bulgaria in 1995. So the Albanians/Croats from Italy-proper are Italians by nationality but not in how they identify ethnically. That's the simplest description for the discrepancy. --Edin balgarin (talk) 13:22, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
Well said. Alex2006 (talk) 14:48, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Italians Abroad[edit]

Vaselineeeeeeee (talk · contribs), you updated the number of Italians abroad to 87 million from the 82 million in the article, this based on an addition of all the other figures. I am wary of totalling such figures because different countries count these things differently, so a simple addition looks like WP:SYNTH. There is a source beside the total figure, but it turns out the figure in the article does not match the source. It says between 60 and 80 million of Italian descent live abroad. However, it also adds 5 million Italian citizens abroad, so how about a compromise. Based on the source we could say "up to 85 million" or something similar. -- Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 16:44, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

The source [1] from 2010 is outdated - it even says Brazil has 25 million ancestral Italians, while it is currently 32 million. Given the current sources for each country listed, I don't see an issue with giving the approx total of 87 million. Since other countries would also have Italian citizens included in the stats is fine because they are diaspora which is included in "Italian diaspora and ancestry: c. 87,000,000"—that 4-5 million is not included in the c. 55 million of Italians, so I don't think we're duplicating anything. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 17:35, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

This now brings back the problem on who do we identify as Italian and who is not. The page currently has the number of Italians in Italy being over 55 million. We have to understand that this is very likely referring to citizens of Italy regardless of one's country origin since Italian census do not ask any questions regarding one's ethnic background or culture. We can agree that the majority of Italian citizens are also Italians by ethnicity. We can definitely also say that we have no more than 80 million people with Italian origins (regardless if from one relative or has complete origins from Italy) abroad without citizenship and about 4 to 5 million individuals with Italian citizenship (without regards to birthplace and are registered with the A.I.R.E.). So by looking at it, we can say ~84 million people abroad who either emigrated from Italy or is a descendant of one plus give or take 55 million people who are very likely to be the majority of ethnic Italians currently living in the Italian homeland. After doing the calculation (like also the Italian Wikipedia) I get a total of ~139,000,000-140,000,000 people who currently live on earth that have some sort of connection to Italy (whether it would be by citizenship or origins). Feel free to debate this or to take it into consideration when editing the Italian population in Italy and abroad. --Scarslayer01 (talk) 17:42, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Well 80 million based on the 2010 source, 87 million based on the current individual country statistics. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 17:55, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
This source is dated 2018 and is the one beside the figure in the infobox. That is where I got 60-80 million from, athough it is not clear where they got their numbers from. -- Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:53, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
I see...Yeah, although that is probably a reliable website, I don't think it's reliable for this purpose, especially since 60 million is way off. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 19:18, 11 March 2020 (UTC) Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 19:18, 11 March 2020 (UTC)