Talk:Kashrut

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Former featured articleKashrut is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Good articleKashrut has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on July 16, 2004.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
May 9, 2004Featured article candidatePromoted
November 1, 2006Featured article reviewDemoted
March 19, 2013Good article nomineeListed
Current status: Former featured article, current good article

Animal rights topic categories[edit]

See the discussion on the topic of this article at the talk page of related article, Talk:Halal § Animal rights topic categories. Rasnaboy (talk) 15:25, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 7 April 2018[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to any particular title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 02:11, 15 April 2018 (UTC)



KashrutKosher – Per the Wikipedia article naming conventions at WP:COMMONNAME, an article's title should be the common English name for the topic. Rreagan007 (talk) 15:30, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

  • Comment: It certainly appears that the topic of this article is the dietary laws themselves, for which "kashrut" is the common English spelling of the term. ONR (talk) 16:40, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
Comment: "Kosher laws" is a far more common English term for the dietary laws themselves than "Kashrut". I'm not sure that "Kashrut" is even considered to be a proper English word by the article, as the article italicizes the term throughout the article, signifying that it's a foreign word rather than an English word. Moving the article to Kosher laws is another possibility. Rreagan007 (talk) 17:26, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:TITLE/WP:NOUN. The proposed title does not reflect the topic of the article and is an adjective rather than a noun. According to the article, kashrut is a set of Jewish religious dietary laws, while the adjective that describes food that may be consumed is kosher. The article deals with the dietary laws and not merely foods that are kosher. In print sources (and Google web searches), the term "kosher laws" is far less common than "kashrut" according to this Google ngram. If there is really a problem with the current title, a descriptive like Jewish dietary laws would be a better choice. —  AjaxSmack  01:24, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Kosher foods is also about Jewish dietary laws. IMO, that's a better title. Merriam Webster spells this word as "kashruth" and defines it as "the state of being kosher."[1] Nine Zulu queens (talk) 08:14, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Seventh-Day Adventists[edit]

Why is the postion of the Seventh-day Adventists on breakfast cereals relevant to the lead of the page on Jewish dietary laws?

If no one objects, I'll remove it.

Hydromania (talk) 09:34, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

rewrite of "Pareve foods" section[edit]

I think the pareve foods section needs a rewrite. Below is the the section as it stands now followed by my proposed changes.

Pareve foods[edit]

Some processes convert a meat or dairy product into a pareve (neither meat nor dairy) one. For example, rennet is sometimes made from stomach linings, yet is acceptable for making kosher cheese,[1] but such cheeses might not be acceptable to some vegetarians, who would eat only cheese made from a vegetarian rennet. The same applies to kosher gelatin, an animal product, derived from kosher animal sources. Other gelatin-like products from non-animal sources such as agar agar and carrageenan are pareve by nature. Fish gelatin is derived from fish and is therefore (like all kosher fish products) pareve. Eggs are also considered pareve despite being an animal product.[2] Bread is often prepared without dairy to be pareve[3].

Kashrut has procedures by which equipment can be cleaned of its previous non-kosher use, but that might be inadequate for those with allergies, vegetarians, or adherents to other religious statutes. For example, dairy manufacturing equipment can be cleaned well enough that the rabbis grant pareve status to products manufactured with it. Nevertheless, someone with a strong allergic sensitivity to dairy products might still react to the dairy residue, and that is why some products that are legitimately pareve carry "milk" warnings.[4]

References

  1. ^ The rennet must be kosher, either microbial or from special productions of animal rennet using kosher calf stomachs.Oukosher.org Archived 2012-03-06 at the Wayback Machine, Retrieved August 10, 2005.
  2. ^ "Meat, Dairy and Pareve". OK Kosher Certification. Retrieved March 15, 2013.
  3. ^ "Dairy Bread – Lo Basi Ela L’Orer"
  4. ^ "Kosher Consumer Misconsumptions". Star-K. Retrieved March 15, 2013.

Pareve foods[edit]

A Pareve (or Parve) food is one which is neither meat nor dairy. Fish fall into this category, as well as any food which is not animal-derived.

Eggs are also considered pareve despite being an animal product.[1]

Some processes convert a meat or dairy derived product into a pareve one. For example, rennet is sometimes made from stomach linings, yet is acceptable for making kosher cheese.[2] but such cheeses might not be acceptable to some vegetarians, who would eat only cheese made from a vegetarian rennet. Gelatin derived from kosher animal sources (which were ritually slaughtered) are also pareve.[3] Such cheese and gelatin might not be acceptable to some vegetarians, who would eat only cheese or gelatin made from a vegetarian sources.

Other gelatin-like products from non-animal sources such as agar agar and carrageenan are pareve by nature. Fish gelatin, like all kosher fish products, is pareve.

Jewish law generally requires that bread be kept parve (i.e., not kneaded with meat or dairy products, or made on meat or dairy equipment).[4]

Kashrut has procedures by which equipment can be cleaned of its previous non-kosher or meat/dairy use, but those may be inadequate for vegetarians, those with allergies, or adherents to other religious statutes. For example, dairy manufacturing equipment can be cleaned well enough that the rabbis grant pareve status to products manufactured with it but someone with a strong allergic sensitivity to dairy products might still react to the dairy residue. That is why some products that are legitimately pareve carry "milk" warnings.[5]

Hydromania (talk) 00:28, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Meat, Dairy and Pareve". OK Kosher Certification. Retrieved March 15, 2013.
  2. ^ The rennet must be kosher, either microbial or from special productions of animal rennet using kosher calf stomachs.Oukosher.org Archived 2012-03-06 at the Wayback Machine, Retrieved August 10, 2005.
  3. ^ "Kosher Gelatin:How a Product from Beef Can be Used in Dairy Delicacies". OU Kosher. Retrieved February 7, 2019.
  4. ^ "WITH THE SWEAT OF THOU BROW SHALL THOU EAT BREAD"
  5. ^ "Kosher Consumer Misconsumptions". Star-K. Retrieved March 15, 2013.
@Hydromania: I'm basically fine with your proposal, which I think definitely improves the section. Using underline and strikeout, I made some edits:
  • "considered" (my style, I guess)
  • unacceptable to vegetarians—presumably applies to the gelatin issue, too, so I reordered a little, even though it separates meat-derived gelatin from vegetable-derived products. I added a paragraph break, but I don't feel strongly about that.
  • "generally": Single-serving breads that are known generally to be dairy, say, are allowed by most authorities. That is why English muffins with dairy hechshers are allowed.
Decide how you'd like to address my proposed changes, then feel free to put it in the article (without the underlines and strikeouts). StevenJ81 (talk) 16:44, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
@StevenJ81:
  • "considered" - I don't really like it. If Jewish law considers it pareve, then, for the purposes of this entry on Jewish dietary laws, it is parve. But I'll leave it in as the previous version had it too.
  • you definitely improved it. But I think the entire part about vegetarians should be taken out. The parve article goes into it. And obviously kosher animal derived gelatin is not vegetarian.
  • "generally" good catch
Hydromania (talk) 18:53, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
👍 Like Hydromania. --תנא קמא (talk) 22:37, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

The 1/60th Rule[edit]

Hi, I think that an extra section for the kashrut law of "Bateil BeShishim - One In Sixty parts" is needed. Here are some links that can be for help:

Thanks and cheers. --תנא קמא (talk) 23:29, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Hi there @תנא קמא: I personally believe the Wikipedia entry should focus on the general facets of the biblical commandment and the rabbinical additions, rather than the more specific laws of kosher. The 1/60 rule is just getting into details. Hydromania (talk) 06:46, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
@Hydromania:, you tagged the Kashrut#Genetically_modified_foods section for clarification, as it mentions this law, and needs elaboration. --תנא קמא (talk) 13:59, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
@תנא קמא: The genetically modified foods section needs a rewrite. I haven't found any sources which explain both sides of the question. That specific part should probably just say something like 'it's kosher because the gene is a miniscule part of the fish, and the fish still resembles a kosher fish' as the OU says here and drop the 1/60 rule entirely Hydromania (talk) 22:02, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Tobacco[edit]

I would suggest reading the sources before deleting cited content. The sources discuss tobacco that is certified Kosher for Passover in Israel. This is because tobacco is considered to contain ingredients forbidden during Passover. Maybe there is a better article for this, but I don't know which that is. Maybe I can revise the content and move it to the Passover section. Cannabis issue same, not only for eating, but debate about whether it is a legume. Please do not make things up. Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 17:15, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with kashruth of dietary, it has to do with chametz issues. I suggest you check your attitude. This article is on the dietary issues of kosher laws, not on chametz issues. Tobacco has no dietary issues and as such does not belong here. Sir Joseph (talk) 19:27, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
Of course certification is an issue for this article, not only a theoretical dispute that certification has expanded beyond what should be covered by kashrut. For this you have presented no supporting sources. To add such commentary would be valuable, if there are supporting sources. However, deletion is not appropriate here, Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 19:37, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Merger proposal[edit]

I propose merging the page Kosher foods into this one.

  • Kashrut applies to food. Kosher foods are foods which kashrut permits or prohibits. The subject is exactly the same.
  • As written now, they both cover the same ground.
  • I have not found any discussion on why there are two pages for the same subject.
  • As the older more stable page (former FA, GA) Kashrut should be the surviving article
  • The name can be discussed. Kashrut is more accurate, Kosher is more prevalent. However, note that this has been discussed many times previously here here here and hasn't been changed. Any new discussion should be after the merger.
  • One argument to make is that the Kashrut page is too long and clunky. I agree to an extent, and believe that after we merge any useful information from kosher foods into this one we should work on spinning of some of the sections into subpages.

Hydromania (talk) 06:17, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

  • I don't know. Kosher foods is more about the various foods themselves, while this article is more about about the institution of how to certify them. There is a certain overlap between the two, but that is not yet a reason to merge. Another good reason not to merge is that both article are not that small, and a merged article would be quite large, see Wikipedia:Article size. Debresser (talk) 09:58, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
Kashrut article is not only foods, it includes manufacturing equipment and details not usually discussed in food articles. Only question is overlap with Jewish cuisine, but this will be controversial and some sources exist to say it does not have to be kosher cuisine to be Jewish.Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 19:11, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
Debresser: But it isn't really. That article is Hechsher. This one has more on the foods than it does on certification or philosophy. Hydromania (talk) 02:22, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Yeah, this is a tough one. The Kosher foods article focuses more heavily on the foods themselves. It would make for a very long and unwieldy article. Slightly oppose. --FeldBum (talk) 14:12, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
  • It seemed to me when I looked that there was more than a little overlap. I'd favor merging. But if we're going to say "no" to this, I would strongly suggest that we try to define the boundary between the two articles, rationalize the content of each appropriately, and add hatnotes describing the difference. StevenJ81 (talk) 23:23, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
  • So no consensus (or no involvement?). I reiterate that it makes little sense to have two articles on the same subject. In regards to the "too large" argument, as noted in the start of this thread I sort of agree, but note that the entire kosher food article is not much longer than the laws of kashrut section on this page and most of the items there are discussed in that section already.
Otherwise we can go with StevenJ81's proposal. Hydromania (talk) 02:19, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose. This issue decided above on April 7, 2018 request. Eschoryii (talk) 01:32, 27 March 2019 (UTC) One is a Jewish religion concept and the other an English word definition of food.

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:37, 4 September 2019 (UTC)