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Animal rights topic categories
Requested move 7 April 2018
Why is the postion of the Seventh-day Adventists on breakfast cereals relevant to the lead of the page on Jewish dietary laws?
If no one objects, I'll remove it.
rewrite of "Pareve foods" section
I think the pareve foods section needs a rewrite. Below is the the section as it stands now followed by my proposed changes.
Some processes convert a meat or dairy product into a pareve (neither meat nor dairy) one. For example, rennet is sometimes made from stomach linings, yet is acceptable for making kosher cheese, but such cheeses might not be acceptable to some vegetarians, who would eat only cheese made from a vegetarian rennet. The same applies to kosher gelatin, an animal product, derived from kosher animal sources. Other gelatin-like products from non-animal sources such as agar agar and carrageenan are pareve by nature. Fish gelatin is derived from fish and is therefore (like all kosher fish products) pareve. Eggs are also considered pareve despite being an animal product. Bread is often prepared without dairy to be pareve.
Kashrut has procedures by which equipment can be cleaned of its previous non-kosher use, but that might be inadequate for those with allergies, vegetarians, or adherents to other religious statutes. For example, dairy manufacturing equipment can be cleaned well enough that the rabbis grant pareve status to products manufactured with it. Nevertheless, someone with a strong allergic sensitivity to dairy products might still react to the dairy residue, and that is why some products that are legitimately pareve carry "milk" warnings.
A Pareve (or Parve) food is one which is neither meat nor dairy. Fish fall into this category, as well as any food which is not animal-derived.
Some processes convert a meat or dairy derived product into a pareve one. For example, rennet is sometimes made from stomach linings, yet is acceptable for making kosher cheese.
but such cheeses might not be acceptable to some vegetarians, who would eat only cheese made from a vegetarian rennet. Gelatin derived from kosher animal sources (which were ritually slaughtered) are also pareve. Such cheese and gelatin might not be acceptable to some vegetarians, who would eat only cheese or gelatin made from a vegetarian sources.
Jewish law generally requires that bread be kept parve (i.e., not kneaded with meat or dairy products, or made on meat or dairy equipment).
Kashrut has procedures by which equipment can be cleaned of its previous non-kosher or meat/dairy use, but those may be inadequate for vegetarians, those with allergies, or adherents to other religious statutes. For example, dairy manufacturing equipment can be cleaned well enough that the rabbis grant pareve status to products manufactured with it but someone with a strong allergic sensitivity to dairy products might still react to the dairy residue. That is why some products that are legitimately pareve carry "milk" warnings.
- @Hydromania: I'm basically fine with your proposal, which I think definitely improves the section. Using underline and strikeout, I made some edits:
- "considered" (my style, I guess)
- unacceptable to vegetarians—presumably applies to the gelatin issue, too, so I reordered a little, even though it separates meat-derived gelatin from vegetable-derived products. I added a paragraph break, but I don't feel strongly about that.
- "generally": Single-serving breads that are known generally to be dairy, say, are allowed by most authorities. That is why English muffins with dairy hechshers are allowed.
- Decide how you'd like to address my proposed changes, then feel free to put it in the article (without the underlines and strikeouts). StevenJ81 (talk) 16:44, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
- "considered" - I don't really like it. If Jewish law considers it pareve, then, for the purposes of this entry on Jewish dietary laws, it is parve. But I'll leave it in as the previous version had it too.
- you definitely improved it. But I think the entire part about vegetarians should be taken out. The parve article goes into it. And obviously kosher animal derived gelatin is not vegetarian.
- "generally" good catch
- Hydromania (talk) 18:53, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
The 1/60th Rule
Hi, I think that an extra section for the kashrut law of "Bateil BeShishim - One In Sixty parts" is needed. Here are some links that can be for help:
- The 1/60th Rule - Kosher - Chabad.org
- One in Sixty « It's Not Quite That Simple « Ohr Somayach
- Food Nullification: Foods - Practical Halacha
- When it's Null and Void: Understanding Batel BShishim (One-Sixtieth ...
- Hi there @תנא קמא: I personally believe the Wikipedia entry should focus on the general facets of the biblical commandment and the rabbinical additions, rather than the more specific laws of kosher. The 1/60 rule is just getting into details. Hydromania (talk) 06:46, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
- @תנא קמא: The genetically modified foods section needs a rewrite. I haven't found any sources which explain both sides of the question. That specific part should probably just say something like 'it's kosher because the gene is a miniscule part of the fish, and the fish still resembles a kosher fish' as the OU says here and drop the 1/60 rule entirely Hydromania (talk) 22:02, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
I would suggest reading the sources before deleting cited content. The sources discuss tobacco that is certified Kosher for Passover in Israel. This is because tobacco is considered to contain ingredients forbidden during Passover. Maybe there is a better article for this, but I don't know which that is. Maybe I can revise the content and move it to the Passover section. Cannabis issue same, not only for eating, but debate about whether it is a legume. Please do not make things up. Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 17:15, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
- It has nothing to do with kashruth of dietary, it has to do with chametz issues. I suggest you check your attitude. This article is on the dietary issues of kosher laws, not on chametz issues. Tobacco has no dietary issues and as such does not belong here. Sir Joseph (talk) 19:27, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
- Of course certification is an issue for this article, not only a theoretical dispute that certification has expanded beyond what should be covered by kashrut. For this you have presented no supporting sources. To add such commentary would be valuable, if there are supporting sources. However, deletion is not appropriate here, Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 19:37, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
I propose merging the page Kosher foods into this one.
- Kashrut applies to food. Kosher foods are foods which kashrut permits or prohibits. The subject is exactly the same.
- As written now, they both cover the same ground.
- I have not found any discussion on why there are two pages for the same subject.
- As the older more stable page (former FA, GA) Kashrut should be the surviving article
- The name can be discussed. Kashrut is more accurate, Kosher is more prevalent. However, note that this has been discussed many times previously here here here and hasn't been changed. Any new discussion should be after the merger.
- One argument to make is that the Kashrut page is too long and clunky. I agree to an extent, and believe that after we merge any useful information from kosher foods into this one we should work on spinning of some of the sections into subpages.
- I don't know. Kosher foods is more about the various foods themselves, while this article is more about about the institution of how to certify them. There is a certain overlap between the two, but that is not yet a reason to merge. Another good reason not to merge is that both article are not that small, and a merged article would be quite large, see Wikipedia:Article size. Debresser (talk) 09:58, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
- Kashrut article is not only foods, it includes manufacturing equipment and details not usually discussed in food articles. Only question is overlap with Jewish cuisine, but this will be controversial and some sources exist to say it does not have to be kosher cuisine to be Jewish.Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 19:11, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, this is a tough one. The Kosher foods article focuses more heavily on the foods themselves. It would make for a very long and unwieldy article. Slightly oppose. --FeldBum (talk) 14:12, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
- It seemed to me when I looked that there was more than a little overlap. I'd favor merging. But if we're going to say "no" to this, I would strongly suggest that we try to define the boundary between the two articles, rationalize the content of each appropriately, and add hatnotes describing the difference. StevenJ81 (talk) 23:23, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- So no consensus (or no involvement?). I reiterate that it makes little sense to have two articles on the same subject. In regards to the "too large" argument, as noted in the start of this thread I sort of agree, but note that the entire kosher food article is not much longer than the laws of kashrut section on this page and most of the items there are discussed in that section already.
- Oppose. This issue decided above on April 7, 2018 request. Eschoryii (talk) 01:32, 27 March 2019 (UTC) One is a Jewish religion concept and the other an English word definition of food.
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