Talk:Passover Seder

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Merge?[edit]

merger debate at Talk:Haggadah_of_Pesach

Revert to take out senseless edits. (Masema 07:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC))

Number of Seder Foods[edit]

This article says there are "always six" seder foods, but I am pretty sure many communities only use five. The food in dispute is the bitter vegetable, the chazeret. Does anyone know more about this?

You are correct (which is probably not what you meant by "knowing more about this", but I did want to re-iterate that).96.231.122.40 (talk) 05:07, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

It would be nice to have some Hebrew text[edit]

Anyone speak Hebrew? It'd be nice to have actual Hebrew text next to the transliterations in the article. I'll be doing a bit more copyediting article on the article soon if no one else takes care of it...shouldn't be too much of a problem, I only noticed a few errors. Any elaboration/consolidation would probably make this article better. cprompt

oh oh, I do! I also have a human Hebrew translator ofc. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 08:43, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Should this article be turned into a disambiguation page?[edit]

Should this article be turned into a disambiguation page? We could move the content of this article to Passover Seder, and have this page say something like this:

Seder is a Hebrew word meaning "order", and can have any of the following meanings:
  • Seder - readings of the Torah according to the ancient Palestinian triennial cycle. The divisions are called sedarim.
  • An order of prayers that constitutes a liturgy. See the article on siddur. (Example, The Seder of Rav Amram)
  • A related order of prayers within a given liturgy, for example: the sounding of the shofar.
  • The Passover seder
  • There is a holiday seder for the minor Jewish holiday of Tu_B'shevat, the 15th day of the Hebrew month of Shevat. It is known as Hemdat ha-Yamim and is modeled on the Passover seder.

I have done that. E=MC^2 T@alk

Historical origin of the Seder[edit]

Many scholars believe that the Seder has been deeply influenced by the Greek culture in which Jews lived at the time. Some even hold that the Seder is a Jewish form of a Greek symposium.

External References[edit]

References[edit]

Baruch M. Bokser The origins of the seder : the Passover rite and early rabbinic Judaism University of California Press, 1984, ISBN: 0520050061

Bokser Baruch M., Ritualizing the Seder, Jounal of the American Academy of Religion 56/1988, S.443-471.

Jonathan Brumberg-Kraus, "'Not by Bread Alone...' Food and Drink in the Rabbinic Seder and in the Last Supper," special issue of Semeia 86: Food and Drink in the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament (ed. by Athalya Brenner and Jan Willem van Henten; 1999), 154-179 and Memorable Meals: Symposia in Luke’s Gospel, The Rabbinic Seder and the Greco-Roman Literary Tradition (forthcoming).

Henry A. Fischel, ed., Essays In Greco-Roman And Related Talmudic Literature (selected with a prolegomenon by [the editor]; New York: KTAV, 1976

Siegfried Stein, The Influence of Symposium Literature on the Literary form of the Pesah Haggadah Journal of Jewish Studies 8 (1957) pp. 13-44.

Joseph Tabory, “Towards a History of the Paschal Meal,” in Passover and Easter: Origin and History to Modern Times (Two Liturgical Traditions v.5; ed. Paul Bradshaw and Lawrence Hoffman; Notre Dame, IN: Notre Dame, 1999) pp.62-80.

Meals as Midrash[edit]

The following is an excerpt from "Meals as Midrash: A Survey of Ancient Meals in Jewish Studies Scholarship" by Jonathan Brumberg-Kraus, Wheaton College, MA, ©2002.

A second major contribution of Jewish Studies to meals in the Greco-Roman world is idea that the Passover seder was a Greco-Roman symposium. This thesis has opened two especially fruitful lines of inquiry, namely, about the relationship between Jewish and Hellenistic culture, and the relationship between actual meal practices and literary texts about them. Siegfried Stein’s seminal article "The Influence of Symposium Literature on the Literary form of the Pesah Haggadah," though originally published in the Journal of Jewish Studies in 1966,[13] became widely known in Jewish studies circles through its inclusion in Henry Fischel's anthology Essays In Greco-Roman And Related Talmudic Literature, a collection of essays specifically intended to break down the excessive dichotomization of "Judaism vs. Hellenism" characteristic of much previous Jewish scholarship.[14]
Stein noted that many of the features of the Passover seder, such as “the four questions,” the emphasis on reclining, the convention of talking about the food on the table or other topics related to the meal practices, games and word play, a hymn at the end (Hallel) etc. had many parallels in Greco-Roman symposium literature. However, the two most important subsequent book length treatments of the Passover seder, Bokser’s Origins of the Seder and Joseph Tabory’s Pesah Dorot (“The Passover Ritual Through the Generations”) come down on different sides of Stein’s thesis.[15] Bokser says the Passover Seder is not a symposium; Tabory says it is, as do I.[16]
The issue really at stake in this controversy is an old one: was Judaism influenced by "Hellenism?" Thus, though Bokser concedes that participation in wider Hellenistic culture was a factor "shaping [the] Passover seder and the formation of early rabbinic Judaism in general," he cannot accept Stein's argument that "symposium literature 'gave the impetus' "to the form of the Passover seder as it stands before us."[17] Rather, the internal Jewish historical crisis of the loss of the Temple in Jerusalem shaped the form of the rabbinic seder.[18] Bokser, in an approach typical of much modern Jewish critical scholarship, insists on the decisive impact of internal, autonomous Jewish factors on Jewish religious texts rather than on external Hellenistic cultural influences.
However, I see no reason why symposium conventions and the loss of the Temple in 70 C.E. could not both be decisive factors shaping the form of the early rabbinic seder. [19] In any case, I think that the thesis that the Passover seder is a symposium has done much to advance more sophisticated understandings of the profound interaction between Biblical/Jewish and Greco-Roman cultural conventions for meals. In addition the thesis has led to a deeper exploration of the relationship between meal rituals and texts about or otherwise related to them, especially in my own work.[20] Some studies of the Passover seder as a symposium seem to confuse the symposium as a performed ritual with symposium texts that are literary representations of meals.[21] Thus, they miss the important point that the literary representation of Jewish meals according to symposium literary conventions are themselves significant interpretations and transformations of experienced rituals into conceptual ideals. The Passover seder in Chapter 10 of M. Pesahim is a literary idealization of Jewish meal practices according to early rabbinic values, just as the wide variety of Socratic, encyclopedic, and satirical literary symposia, as well as sympotic lists of meal rules, and stylized meal scenes imbedded in fictional narratives are idealizations of other extra-textual Greco-Roman meal practices, according to the particular ideological values of their authors.[22]
The literary representation of symposia according to the conventions of the genres turns "actual" meal settings and practices into objects of intellectual reflection, to be contrasted with one another, to be preferred or rejected, or simply to demonstrate that proponents of the various schools represented at banquets do or do not practice what they preach.[23] Tabory and I offer broad sketches of the historical development of the literary genres of symposia in order to situate the Passover seder within them. Tabory does this to suggest that development of the Passover Haggadah from a midrash on Deut. 26:5-8: "My father was a wandering Aramean…" to the lengthy rite in m. Pesahim 10 prescribing the explanation of the foods at the table, parallels the literary development of Greco-Roman symposia...
...My bottom line: the sympotic features and form of the Passover seder were not incidental accretions or unconscious developments. The symposium literary tradition provided the composers of Mishnah Pesahim 10, as well as their ideological rivals, with a wide range of options from which to choose to idealize their characteristic communal meals. Their choices were intentional, and were recognized as such – if at the very least to distinguish their way as preferable to others....

The breakdown of the many steps[edit]

Whoever chose to break down Maggid into four distinct "tellings" --- It is nice, and I certainly agree, but I think it may stray too far from what an encylopedia should do, and get too close to what a commentary should do. Nevertheless, it is already in and I will not call for it to be deleted. I only mention it in order to contrast it with what appears in the section about Eliahu ha-Navi. We can debate whether or not to include anything about the pouring of the fifth cup, and its connection to Eliyahu, but to omit those points while including a reference to a song which does not appear in any Hagada that I've ever seen seems ludicrous. I vote for either removing this section, or at least adding something about the fifth cup, or preferably both. --Keeves 22:52, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

nquddah and daghesh[edit]

I want to pronuciations of Hebrew language. Can anyone write and point the Hebrew letter on Japanese ja:セーデル・シェル・ペサハ article with nquddah and daghesh? --Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 15:50, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

To merge or not to merge[edit]

I don't agree that the Passover Seder article should be merged with the Haggadah article. The Haggadah is only the guide to how to conduct a Seder; there are other reasons and symbolism for why the Seder is going on. However, the way this article is written, it is nothing more than another version of the Haggadah article. The rundown of each part of the service should not be the main issue here. This article needs to be rewritten with an eye to explaining the reasons and symbolism behind the Seder itself. Yoninah 23:25, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

  • I fully agree with Yoninah's reasoning/s. IZAK 04:37, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Pictures[edit]

Since the opportunity to photograph a seder comes just once a year, I thought it best to bring up this point: we could show it better. I took the only picture yet on the page, and as you can see, my family's table setting is terribly casual. This Passover, please take a picture of a better one. —RadRafe 08:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Public Seders[edit]

In addition to private family Seders, there are many public Seders, which can be attended by anyone.

Reasons for attending public Seders vary:

  • not wanting to be alone
  • being away from home for work or holiday
  • wanting someone else to do the cooking and cleaning up

A public Seder can be held at any type of venue:

  • hotel
  • restaurant
  • marquis
  • synagogue hall
  • community centre

If you are looking for a public seder which you can attend, do search with your favourite search engined for the local Jewish community services, and contact them. Public Seders are often publicised in the local Jewish press in the few weeks prior to Passover.

The Chabad-Lubavitch Movement offer public seders locally and around the world. Some of their seders have turned into mass seders that are the biggest in the world. The first such mass seder took place in Kathmandu, Nepal in 1989, and was attended by 350 people. Later these seders had in attendance over 1800 people at one time! The Kathmandu seder spawned other such mass seders located in places that are travel destinations for thousands of young Israelis. The Chabad website has an International Seder Directory, which helps people locate public seders wherever they are in the world!

We attended a public Seder last year (2005) at the Saatchi Synagogue in London. There were about 80 people present. Some were singles, who had no where else to go. There were some international students who were studying in London. A few were elderly couples who couldn't be bothered to make the seder at home. We were there because we didn't want to have a seder with just 2 people, but we had no one to invite. Biggybank 07:37, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for all this information. You could either write it into the article yourself (in encyclopedic style), or wait for someone else to do it. Yoninah 07:39, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Inclusive[edit]

It's worth noting that many christian churches also organize an annual Passover Seder. In addition, English & Hebrew aren't the only acceptable languages for conducting the Passover Seder. It be be done in any language. Joncnunn 21:27, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Yours is a very interesting note about Christian churches, and is very appropriate for the article about Passover (Christian holiday). As you can see from the talk page on Passover, the consensus is to separate Jewish and Christian observances of Passover into separate Wikipedia articles.
Regarding your second observation, it is true that the Seder can be conducted in any language, although the Halakha prescribes that it be done in Hebrew. I amended the text to include other languages, per your point. Yoninah 21:41, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I have removed additon by user:207.200.116.200, mostly these two paragraphs:

Jews born and raised in Israel, Karaite Jews, and Samaritans only observe Passover for one day, whether they are in Israel or travelling/living abroad during the holiday. Likewise, Jews who grew up observing a two-day Passover continue to do so even when if they are visiting or living in Israel during the holiday. Sephardic Jews, who may observe either a one or two-day Passover celebration, typically do a first night seder and a seventh-night seder.
The Passover seder recounts liberation and the Exodus of the Children of Israel from bondage to slavery in Ancient Egypt. In Sephardic tradition, the Exodus is actually re-enacted as a bit a seder dinner theatre. The text of seder proper is contained in a small booklet called a Haggadah. There are symbolic foods on a ritual plate, called a Seder Plate. The specific foods vary slightly between ethno-cultural traditions, but there are always six of them and all traditions use the same categories of foods (e.g., there are always two types of bitter herb, though different traditions and different families may use different particular bitter herbs); and, of course, there is always matzo. Four questions are asked during the seder. In Ashkenazic tradition, the four questions are asked by the youngest person. In Sephardic tradition, they questions are asked communally.

Firstly it is too long for an introduction. Second I have no idea who Samaritan has anything do with the seder. Sephardim don't celebrate a seder on the seventh night. Jon513 18:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

You also removed the Hebrew text that I had added. I don't know if that was on purpose or not. I won't readd it in case you meant to do that. Just wanted to let you know in case you weren't aware :) —Seqsea (talk) 20:13, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

"Focus on Children"[edit]

The traditional emphasis on children is of Biblical origin and is clearly stated in the Talmud. The Mishna explicitly states that the son (albeit not necessarily the youngest) asks his father the "Mah Nishtana." This is also reflected in many Sephardic halachic works (including the Shulchan Aruch).

Physical reenactment of the Exodus at the Seder exists by Ashkenazim as well (especially Chassidim), and is mentioned in many old sources.

good job. I've notice you've made a few Passover related changes. I hope your stay on wikipedia extends passed the holiday. If it does I would recommend getting a user account. Welcome. Jon513 07:59, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Non-Jewish Seders[edit]

I think this discussion is weak and misleading. Unfortunately I do not know of any secondary sources to quote but I know that it is off from personal observation of the movement. Since the early Christian church there has been debate about the need to observe the Jewish rituals since Christianity is an extension of Judaism. The downplay came as part of the desire to covert the gentiles to Christianity. Thus, it is legitimate for Christians to use any Old Testament rituals and not all churches try to change its meaning.Mangogirl2 11:44, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Open-ended seders[edit]

I know first-hand that some seders DO eat dessert in an open-ended manner (of which the "Afikomen" might or might not be part). Unfortunately, it's tough to find written sources to reflect this fact. So I added "traditionally" as a hedge term to the parts concerning the Afikomen. The point is clear: Seders are not as set in stone as Orthodox and Conservative/ Masorti Jews might suggest, but is often a household and family tradition. — Rickyrab | Talk 20:47, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Admittedly, this custom has an uneasy coexistence with the Four Children part of a Haggadah, leading to the potential for some joking and/or laughing. For that matter, my personal opinion is that there ought to be more children (representing more types of people) and more discussion of those children. I also suspect the Simple Child and The Child who Does Not Know How to Ask are pretty much the same type of person (note the similarity of treatment). — Rickyrab | Talk 20:51, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Capitalization[edit]

Why is Seder always capitalized in the article? --Xtreambar (talk) 20:54, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

That is an excellent question. If I knew more grammar I would have a definite answer for you; but all I can do is speculate that whoever capitalized it thought that it is a Proper noun. I have no opinion on the matter - grammar gives me a headache. Jon513 (talk) 22:23, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
This requires research. The capitalization in the article is currently inconsistent. Either it is a proper noun or it is not. I tend to think that it is not a proper noun but am not confident enough about that to change everything. If it is not a proper noun, then all references (except, of course, at the beginnings of sentences) must be made lowercase, including in the title. Holy (talk) 17:06, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
I don't think it's a proper noun, but maybe it should be italicized as a foreign word. Zargulon (talk) 19:44, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Per APA Style Guide's official Twitter page, Seder should always be capitalized (https://twitter.com/apstylebook/status/455708013253644288?lang=en) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.89.135.62 (talk) 03:25, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it is a proper noun. That's common knowledge amongst Jews. It means Order, and it refers to the strict order of observances during the ritual, from start to finish. You don't "go sedering", you attend your mother's Seder. I'm surprised by this discussion. I don't think after 3000 years that it would still just be a common noun, do you? It isn't a foreign word, it's the name of the ritual, which I use in plain English many times per year. Like "Christmas", not "the christ day", or "Easter", not "the east day", like "The Bible", not like "that there book", and like "Lenten", not like "lenty". This is the same. I hope that clears that up forever. Next time, ask a Rabbi, but make sure you only ask mine (that's a joke, it's ok to laugh). — Preceding unsigned comment added by AdamJRichards (talkcontribs) 17:22, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Citations Needed[edit]

This article is chock full of generalities and inaccuracies, such as the statement that the seder is affiliated with thge "messianic age". That's just one, I don't have time to list them all, but the vast majority of information in this article does not include citations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.124.149.222 (talk) 07:21, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


Days that the Seder is Held[edit]

I have it straight from the horse's (ie, a good Jewish friend) mouth that the Seder is not held on "any" of the nights, but solely on the first or second night, depending on if one dwells in Israel or not. Can anyone provide any references to the contrary? If not, the first paragraph should be edited to reflect the fact that it is not any night it's held on but only the first or second. --Kokkei bunni (talk) 03:26, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

it has been fixed. In the future feel free to fix it yourself. Jon513 (talk) 15:21, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

This hasn't been true for well over a century. Modern families are too complex to maintain this rule. There's usually competition to see which family gets you first night, husband's or wife's, so there are normally two Seders. Families in Reform congregations have been adding communal Seders since the 1800s, and families which simply can't get together for the first or second are allowed and encouraged to have supplementary Seders for the sake of inclusion. AdamJRichards (talk) 17:33, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Cleanup tagging[edit]

This reads like a blow-by-blow derived not only from reliable sources but in large part from personal experience. It needs to focus more on the origins and significance of the event, with the descriptions of the event itself significantly condensed. Seraphimblade Talk to me 10:37, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Interfaith seders[edit]

see also wikiarticle Rodger Kamenetz

-- 88.72.22.205 (talk) 23:53, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Elijah's Cup[edit]

I just added some information that concerns the fifth cup of wine. The information that was there previously - that Elijah comes into homes on Seder night and drinks the wine - was lamentably incomplete. I have kept it there, given that it reflects contemporary beliefs, but added the background. --Aniboker (talk) 02:10, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Miriam's section? Why[edit]

The section on Miriam's Cup seems a little off... It doens't cite any references, seems to be a new inclusion (20 years ago insteady of 3,000) and has the ring of 'Things Made Up at School One Day'. Can anyone verify? 99.246.148.42 (talk) 03:00, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

He's a site on it if that helps: [1] Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 04:32, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I can't believe this is still here. "Miriam's ritual" is not a part of the Seder, any more than "Adam's ritual", or "Egbert's ritual" is. This is just made up. It's not Passover. It's barely Passoverish. Passover is not a video game or theatrical performance. It's an ancient ritual, and this is not even close to being a legitimate part of it.AdamJRichards (talk) 17:28, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

possible copyright violation[edit]

I recently reverted an edit. But I now see that there may be a problem: the wording found in the paragraph is close to verbatim that of the sources provided: [2], and especially [3]. I think it violates copyright as stands. Anybody care to rewrite it? Bus stop (talk) 18:44, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Someone really should, it's almost Pesach and people will come here for information. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 16:07, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
There's a paragraph about the orange at Passover Seder Plate#Variants, which I revised recently (and then it was revised some more by another editor), citing a number of different sources. I'm not sure about the last sentence of that paragraph (which sounds like it might be a subtle bit of advertising), but overall it might be a good model for an alternative text. --Arxiloxos (talk) 22:30, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
About traditional homophobia in Judaism? It is traditionally homophobic though (as are all the Abrahamic faiths). Do we need more source talking about this for the article though?

Note regarding the use of child in place of son[edit]

So I noticed this edit right here: [4]. I would like to say that the translation using child in place of son is perfectly acceptable if the original Hebrew word used is yeled (ילד) meaning either boy or child in Hebrew. Ben (בן) is son btw. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 02:36, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Categorization[edit]

From Category:Meals

A meal is an instance of eating, specifically one that takes place at a specific time and includes specific, prepared foodstuffs.

From Passover Seder

The Passover Seder is a Jewish ritual feast.

So this just does not compile. Thus: Breakfast, lunch, dinner or supper are meals. Passover Seder or Thanksgiving dinner are not.

If you disagree, I'd be glad to read your arguments.

Also, please discuss before reverting any good faith edits. Netrat (talk) 12:29, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Need for a section on Seder's history[edit]

It is conspicuously lacking - in fact, the question "When was the first seder?" seems to make some Jews uncomfortable. Is it the case that some rabbis, sometime, decided that Jews should commemorate annually their exit from Egypt?

There is mention above on this page, but nothing in the article. Bokser's study is never mentioned. He dates the earliest reference to about 200 C.E.

How have the seder and haggadah evolved between their origin and their present celebration(s)? deisenbe (talk) 15:55, 19 December 2014 (UTC)


I agree that there should be a section on the seder's history. I came to this page because I was curious about something: In Exodus 12:8-9, God commands the children of Israel to eat the passover lamb. However, according to this page, a lamb or goat bone is present but no lamb is eaten. Is this because the ritual changed at some point (perhaps after the destruction of the Temple)? Or are there two distinct rituals here: a Passover feast (commanded in Ex 12:14) with roasted lamb, and a Seder meal (commanded in Ex 13:3-10) with a lamb bone? That seems odd to me, but this article never mentions Ex 12:14, which makes me doubt my previous assumption that these two chapters are referring to the same ritual.
If there is controversy about "when was the first seder", as Deisenbe suggests, then this controversy might be mentioned. His suggestion that there were no seders before 200 CE seems highly implausible to me, since the annual feast is clearly commanded in Ex 12 and 13, and not even the most skeptical liberal Biblical scholars would claim the Torah was written as late as 200 CE! But to avoid such reckless speculation, a section on History of the Seder would be truly helpful. — Lawrence King (talk) 18:52, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

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date?[edit]

My calendar says this year it's the evening of April 19, article says 20.--Exjerusalemite (talk) 16:32, 14 March 2019 (UTC) Looks like an inaccurate module is used to calculate the dates in the infobox. if there's no objection, i will edit the infobox and manually enter the correct dates.--Exjerusalemite (talk) 22:10, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Non-Jewish Seders[edit]

This section is offensive. It isn't about Seders at all, it's political and social criticism disguised as "inclusion". These are not Seders. A Seder can be feminist, but if it's a Feminist Seder, then it isn't a Seder. You can't hate what you're claiming to celebrate, and call it a Seder. You can't just elevate every Seder-themed publicity stunt to the historical and social peerage of traditions followed by hundreds of millions of ordinary people over the millenia. It isn't a Seder if it repudiates every Seder value, insults most of the Seder-going Jews in the world, and rewrites every single liturgical passage to suit itself. Judaism is not a vehicle for left or right wing politics, it is a culture, a religion, a way of life, and the proper and right self-identification of Jews. "Judaism" is not a religion alone, and pretending it is one has become the traditional excuse for cultural insults of all sorts; "Jew" is not a "faith", it's a person, and the Seder is not a place for religious dilettantes to air their political views, any more than a funeral is a place of debate, or your wedding is a place for guests to advertise cleaning products. There's no article on Wikipedia discussing "Alternative High Masses" for unhappy Anglicans. There's no section in the "Ramadan" article about "feminist interpretations" of Islam's major holidays. There's no "non-traditional" Easter celebrations listed, no "feminist Christmas" on the Christmas page, but for some reason, the article about a uniquely Jewish ritual contains multiple hostile references to traditional Judaism, particularly noteworthy as the most unresearched "facts" I've found on Wikipedia in a while. The authors may not have used "original research"; they didn't have to, because their citations are almost all traceable back to opinion and autobiography, not research. They belong on a page called "Hostile References to Traditional Judaism in Seder-themed Protests", but they do not belong here, any more than snide reference to the "outdated moral practices of the traditional Christmas midnight mass" would be tolerated on the "Christmas Mass" page. It is abhorrent bordering on racist that only a page about Jews is treated as a forum for the opinions of non-Jews. We are people, not magazine articles to be discussed as if we aren't able, permitted, or rightful to speak for ourselves. We're right here, you know, like actual people; we can hear you. So tell me: how do the actions of a minority of vaguely Jewish atheist critics so small that they can all be named in a paragraph belong on a page about a 3000-year-old religious and cultural tradition which has affected the life of this planet deeply, not just us, since 1500 years before Jesus was an apprentice, in spite of its untrusting insularity and the hostility of the whole world? Tell that story. Do we really need after all that hostility to have our descriptions in the Encyclopedia of Everything written by people whose hostility to Judaism as it presently exists is palpable? Stop treating me as a billboard to plaster your handbills on. Let my people speak for themselves.

If this offensive politicking is still here after anyone interested has had a chance to reply, I'm taking it down. Put it somewhere else, but don't put it under "Passover", because Passover already means something, and it's not up to non-Jews to decide what that is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AdamJRichards (talkcontribs) 17:05, 18 April 2019 (UTC)