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Do highland regions count?[edit]

I noticed that some areas in Philippines (Baguio), Mexico (Mexico City) and South America (Bogota, Cuzco, La Paz) aren't listed as being subtropical climate even though all these locations (despite being in tropical latitudes) are subtropical because they are on high elevations. Is there a reason for that? 79thfiregod 21:34, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Probably no one has dug up a reasonable reference. If you find one, add them in. Thegreatdr (talk) 02:48, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Scotland is not subtropical[edit]

The mere fact that SOME subtropical plant species can be sucessfully grown in places such as Scotland or Vancouver Island ( because of the mild low-frost winter weather due to ocean currents etc ), does not mean that these places can be considered to have a subtropical climate.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Eregli bob (talkcontribs) 06:44, 19 March 2007 (UTC).


"The term 'subtropics' describes the climatic region found adjacent to the tropics, usually adjacent to either the north or south pole latitudinal. "

The second part of the preceding statement makes no sense whatsoever and should be changed. I would change it myself but I have no idea what the intention of the author was. Eregli bob 06:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Same here. I dare not touch it either as it perhaps was written by a Fringe Case. Jidanni 18:48, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Coastal Australia[edit]

This is completely wrong. Firstly, the tropic of capricorn passes straight through Austalia (including two of its coasts!) which maeans at least part of the coastline is Tropical. Secondly, are you actually suggesting that Melbourne and Hobart are situated in subtropical regions?

Also, how can you say the term only applies to 'Coastal Australia' and south africa? Both countries have non-coastal areas that are subtropical.

If nobody has an objection i'll be back to change the article. Factoid Killer 15:06, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Go for it. This article needs more spatial definitions to help describe the geographical regions that are the subtropics. This would help seperate it from the climate related zone known as a Subtropical climate and aid in the distinction between the two when they do not align together on a map. - Shiftchange 01:25, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


Athens does NOT fit the given definition at all. Either the definition must be changed or Athens not included, because in Athens it freezes and snows almost every winter. If you prefer, the definition could be improved to include the Mediterranean climate, but it's not very clear. David 11:56, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

The Mediterranean climate is a transition climate between the dry tropical weather and the humid maritime temperate weather. All these three types of climate (deserts, mediterranean and maritime temperate) are located on the western sides of continents, both in the Northern and in the Southern hemisphere. The Mediterranean climate can be considered sub-tropical.

All Southern Australia, excepting Tasmania, can be considered sub-tropical. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 20:06, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Merge from Talk:Subtropical climate[edit]

I think it should be merged with Subtropical climate Amirpedia 14:09, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree; there doesn't seem much point having this spearate article (and articles whose titles are adjectives alwsys look odd). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 15:17, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Should this be merged with the article Subtropics? --Editor B 17:49, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

That was an excellent suggestion. Moving this talk to Talk:Subtropics, as well. --Dhartung | Talk 01:26, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Subtropical Depression 22 (2005)[edit]

Why is there a picture of Subtropical Depression 22 in the article? It has nothing to do with anything. I am removing the picture.


It says here that Miami is truly tropical, yet on the Miami page it says that it falls just short. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs) 16:44, 12 November 2006

Miami AP (S) 25° 48' N 80° 16' W Miami Beach Co 25° 47' N 80° 17' W

"The subtropics refers to the zones of the Earth immediately north and south of the tropic zone, which is bounded by the Tropic of Cancer and the Tropic of Capricorn, at latitude 23.5 ° north and south. The term 'subtropics' describes the climatic region found adjacent to the tropics, closer to either the north or south pole latitudinal."

Miami tropical? Ah, close but no cigar!


How can Auckland be subtropical? It is clearly temperate and lies in the temperate zone. Only the far north of Northland is subtropical in New Zealand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 22:15, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

The subtropics are part of the temperate zone, which is why they are sub-tropical and not tropical. (talk) 08:46, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

The temperature averages for auckland are all on the Auckland page for wikipedia, Auckland has eight or mor months with a mean average of above 10 degrees celsius, the very definition of a subtropical climate. Furthermore, here is a metereological page with temperature descriptions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:55, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

May not be official per Köppen but Auckland does have a Cfb climate. Please stop readding it when it is disputed. Bidgee (talk) 11:44, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
Which climate classification does the map showing subtropical regions in yellow and the rest of the world's land is grey use? It isn't Koeppen, because Koeppen doesn't class any of NZ as subtropical, due to it not having hot summers. It isn't Trewartha, as Trewartha classes Melbourne as subtropical (C), due to it having enough months averaging above 10C. Jim Michael (talk) 10:36, 6 November 2014 (UTC)


"These climates rarely - if ever - see frost or snow, and plants such as palm, citrus and many broadleaf evergreens flourish, in contrast to the hardier deciduous and coniferous trees which dominate midlatitude climates."

This isn't really correct. Places like Atlanta, Georgia or even Washington D.C. are considered to have subtropical climate but frosts and snow are relatively common there (see articles for those cities). The actual definition of a subtropical climate is that the AVERAGE temperature of the coldest month does not fall below freezing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 23:59, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

According to your definition, also Britain and Ireland would have a "subtropical climate" since the average temperature of the coldest month for most locations does not fall below zero. In my opinion a real subtropical climate should have an average temperature of the coldest month at least above 7 °C (45 °F)*. Below that value the vegetation activity of plants in winter is reduced--Carnby (talk) 08:14, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Part of the British Isles - The Isles of Scilly - has an average in the coldest month of 10C (50F) max and 7C (45F) min - an overall average of 8.5C (47F) - so that would be subtropical on the definition given above*. Furthermore, there are 8 months when the overall average for the month is 10C (50F) or greater, which is the requirement for subtropical as per the Glenn Trewartha Classification. It is nonsense to say that the cutoff for subtropical is 0C (32F) average for the coldest month except where the warmest month averages 22C (72F) or warmer as per Koppen. New York just sneaks into that category and has an annual temperature very similar to the Isles of Scilly mentioned above. See the MSN weather forecasts, there is a link on each called 'averages'. Check these out for Isles of Scilly and New York, and by adding the maximums and minimums together in each case, and then dividing by 24, you would get a difference of just 0.5C between the two locations' annual temperature --- 12.3C on the Isles of Scilly and 12.8C in New York for the annual average. I have just worked it out.

  • I think you have to take precipitation into account. Jolly Ω Janner 17:09, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Tucscon Arizona[edit]

This is joke, right?

It is subtropical from a temperature standpoint, but certainly not from a precipitation standpoint (way too dry year-round). CrazyC83 (talk) 23:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Subtropical climates don't have to be humid, they can be arid. In fact most of the worlds major deserts such as the Sahara lie in the subtropics. They are defined by their temperatures not by their precipitation. So in this subtropical category there are are climates that are dry all year, climates that are dry in summer, climates that are dry in winter and humid subtropical climates that have adequate rainfall all year round.
You are probably thinking of equatorial (rainforest) climates, but they don't have much to do with subtropical climates. Booshank (talk) 12:48, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


The map found in this page (drawn by a German user) is ridiculous. How can northern Italy be "subtropical" like coastal Somalia (!) while southeastern Spain "warm temperate" like western Russia (see this?--Carnby (talk) 17:22, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

The map is extremely wrong[edit]

Yalta is subtropical ? This winter the temperatures went to down to even -14 C/7F , that doesn't sound very subtropical. How can Yalta and most of Australia be in the same category ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Supaplexis (talkcontribs) 10:12, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

It's the map of subtropical climate according to Troll and Paffen. If there are better maps they should be welcomed, but they must be made according to reliable sources.--Carnby (talk) 22:05, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
Subtropical does not mean it can never get very cold. It simply means that average monthly temperature does not fall below freezing. See humid subtropical climate. New York City, where single digit temperatures (below -12 C) occur almost every winter, is still considered to have a subtropical climate because its average January temperature is almost exactly 32 F(0 C). Also, below freezing temperatures occur as far south as central Florida and no one would question that it is subtropical (with the exception of South Florida which is fully tropical).--Mishnayd (talk) 05:29, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Also remember that for the OC (32F) cutoff on the coldest month, the warmest month must average 22C (72F) or warmer - very important - see the Koppen Classification. Otherwise you need to use the John F Griffiths or Glenn Trewartha Classifications which require the coldest month to be at least averaging 6C (43F) for the John F Griffiths and in the case of the Glenn Trewartha Classification 8 months have to average 10C (50F) or warmer. As regards the Glenn Trewartha classification, it is unlikely that any place conforming with it would have a coldest month averaging below 6C (43F) anyway. If you can find a place where there are 8 months averaging 10C (50F) or better that has a coldest month below 6C (43F) then please type it in the space below. I will be fairly surprised if you can find one.

Checked Wikipedia pages for the following cities —— Shanghai. Nanjing. Wuhan. Hangzhou. That means a huge swath of China, namely right above and below the Yangtze. Also Atlanta, which barely makes it, at 42.7 °F (5.9 °C), and regions to the north of it. Add a degree or two to even Washington's November and it qualifies. Epic fail? ---何献龙4993 (talk) 14:36, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps the map could show areas as subtropical if they meet all of the mainstream classifications for subtropical, i.e Koppen, John F Griffiths and Glenn Trewartha classifications. I live in Wellington, New Zealand and i'm surprised that the article lists us as a subtropical climate. It gets neither hot nor cold here. But subtropical? - I wish! (talk) 08:06, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

There's a huge error in examples here. Not only this article mentions places in the southern hemisphere that are inside the tropical zone, such as northern Australia and Lima, Peru, it also wrongly pushes parts of Europe and Central Asia located above the parallel 40 into the subtropics. Yalta is not subtropical. It is yet warmer than the bulk of Russia. That's why Russians like to wrongly call Crimea as subtropical. Places in Europe such as Milan or Barcelona are not subtropical either. They are above the parallel 40, as much as South New Zealand or Patagonia are. Barcelona may have its share of semi-arid Mediterranean climate but it's not exactly subtropical. It has little snow because it's on the coast, just like South New Zealand or Patagonia. Inland Catalonia has plenty of snow — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 03:55, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

  • Mexico appears a bit off as well, as places at least at far south as 19N within its main plateau are called subtropical highlands. It wouldn't be original research if someone altered the graphic to fit the referencing, would it? Thegreatdr (talk) 01:51, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 15:06, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Baltimore, Washington DC Subtropical?[edit]

How Can you even consider Baltimore or DC subtropical, i do realize that we close to the southern end of the temperate zone, but subtropical? have you tried to grow a palm tree here? or how about visiting us in january where its not uncommon for some sections of the chesapeake bay to freeze and its common for the reflecting pool at the washington monument to freeze. I lived in this region most of my life and even during the warmest winters 95% of our vegitation dies. Also the region averages over 20 inches of snow each winter. If you consider the Baltimore/DC area subtropical then I wonder what is considered a temperate climate maybe "Siberia". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnnimos (talkcontribs) 21:57, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I think the problem is that the definition of this climate according to the Koppen system is very broad, much broader than the generally used concept of "subtropical". The coldest month can have an average temperature of between -3C and 18C. That's a very big range - at the colder end you could be in the snows of Baltimore and at the upper end you could be on Durban beach under a coconut palm. Only the warmer climates in this category are what is generally called "subtropical".
Small correction - climatologists in the US use the 0 C (32F) for the bottom end of the range, not -3C. I think the problem is that the scientific meaning of the word "subtropical" and its colloquial use don't match. (Oh, and I've seen palm trees in Maryland) --Mishnayd (talk) 06:06, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
It is also worth noting that Koppen never used the term "substropical" for this climate zone but "Sinic" (of China).
I removed these based on the presence of the map, it appears the "zone" runs up diagonally from roughly Charlotte to Norfolk . . . which means DC, Balt and Philly are not represented by the map and Richmond is borderline. If an editor wishes to contest this with citations I'd be curious but the map presented is the map presented, DC ain't in the shaded area thus Philly and Balt aren't either.MarketDiamond 13:11, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
Actually by the 8 months with daily average ≥ 10 °C (50 °F) definition, downtown Baltimore actually is subtropical (coming in at 10.2 °C (50.3 °F) in NOV), but we all know that this is due largely due to UHI, and so I am unwilling to add it, as even Washington, DC barely falls short with 49.6 °F (9.8 °C) in NOV. In addition, it seems Salisbury, MD is less borderline subtropical and has perhaps substantially less of an UHI compared to the major cities of the I-95 Megalopolis. BTW, these conclusions are all based on 1981–2010 normals. GotR Talk 04:23, 25 March 2013 (UTC)


The description of Australia being almost wholly subtropical apart from Tasmania and Victoria is misleading. The northern half of Western Australia, 2/3 of Queensland, and the vast majority of NT lie above the Tropic of Capricorn, and are therefore within the tropics. The northern parts of Western Australia, Queensland, and NT are by even the strictest definition tropical. Calling these regions subtropical is akin to labeling England polar. The NT, in particular, lies almost entirely within the tropics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ailahusky (talkcontribs) 10:01, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

You're right. The northern half is tropical, not subtropical. The southern half is subtropical except Tasmania. I think anyway that the term subtropical is vague and debatable. Mostly we can refer to the temperate areas between the tropics and the paralel 40. Given that, there are plenty of different climates as well as temperature ranges according to whether these regions are on coastal areas, inland, on eastern coasts, on western coasts, on altitude, etc. Tasmania is not subtropical because it's the only region of Australia higher than the paralel 40.

+ Ozone loss made tropics rainier: Hole over Antarctica changes weather patterns all the way to the equator[edit]

Add Ozone loss made tropics rainier: Hole over Antarctica changes weather patterns all the way to the equator by Alexandra Witze May 21st, 2011; Vol.179 #11 (p. 15) in Science News (online April 21 in Science (journal)). Related Ozone hole (Ozone depletion).

The shift happens, Kang says, because ozone loss causes a westerly-flowing atmospheric jet to move further south, which in turn pulls a midlatitude band of dry air south. The region near the equator, in turn, gets wetter. The 1989 Montreal Protocol banned many chlorofluorocarbon chemicals, and scientists expect the ozone hole to recover by midcentury. But rising levels of greenhouse gases also push atmospheric jets southward, so global warming may counteract any changes from the healing ozone hole, says Nathan Gillett of Environment Canada's climate modeling center in Victoria, British Columbia.

Also see Talk:Intertropical Convergence Zone moving North due to global warming. (talk) 02:39, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Nullarboor plain[edit]

Here is a map showing the location of the Nullarbor plain:

Here is our very own Subtropics map showing the location of the subtropics, which the Nullarbor plain is clearly in:

Here is a map showing the location of the tropics, which the Nullarbor plain clearly isn't in:

Once again, your reversion is reverted. Have a nice day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hoplophile (talkcontribs) 21:14, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Those maps are not supported by any sources, you can't use them to cite or claim it has that subtropic climate (it is WP:OR and fails both WP:RS and WP:V by doing so) when in fact it has a semi-arid climate which I stated on your talk page but you have chosen to ignore it. Bidgee (talk) 21:27, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Oh gosh! You mix up different concepts: amount of humidity with proximity to the tropics. Nullarbor is clearly subtropical dry! It's not in the intertropical zone, it's below. So it's subtropical. It doesn't matter whether it rains a lot or not. That's not the real definition of being tropical: topical humid or tropical dry: both tropical. Just study maps: Northern part of Australia - tropical; southern part of Australia, including Melbourne but excluding Tasmania - subtropical. Is that so difficult to see? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 04:28, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Northern New Zealand[edit]

In this article, northern New Zealand is classified as subtropical. It's certainly pretty mild here most of the time. But in the Oceanic climate article, all of New Zealand is classified as having an Oceanic climate. Are they both right? Kahuroa (talk) 23:38, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

I am taking this to the Oceanic climate talk page in hopes of a response there Kahuroa (talk) 22:44, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
I have replaced the map used on this page - its claimed [source] doesn't mention the Koeppen system, and dates from 1984. Kahuroa (talk) 21:11, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Köppen climate chart for Australia[edit]

There's a lot of debate and OR up above regarding Australian climate zones, with a seemingly strong push to classify a lot of it as sub-tropical. The chart on this page shows how the Australian Bureau of Meteorology, one of three World Meteorological Centres of the World Meteorological Organisation, classifies Australia's climate zones, according to Köppen.

Only a realatively small area is shown as sub-tropical.

I hope this helps. HiLo48 (talk) 08:35, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Whole Australia has warm/hot climate, there is no cold climates. Australia has tropical Darwin or Alice Springs with hot desert climate (with temperatures as in the African Sahara) and so, for Australian Bureau of Meteorology, Sydney etc has a temperate climate. However, according to world standards, Sydney etc has a subtropical climate (no matter whether variant as Mediterranean climate or subtropical highland variety or humid subtropical climate or subtropical semi-desert/desert climate). In the world does not exist "temperate climate" with winter with average temperatures of 17°C. Australian Bureau of Meteorology is unreliable in this case, ie naming climates in their area. Australian Bureau of Meteorology let the only "guessing" in forecast for tomorrow ;) The second issue, Köppen climate classification is not the only climate classifications on the world (there is at least a few, with at least two assigns subtropical climate for Sydney etc) and even, according the Köppen climate classification Sydney etc has oceanic climate, not "temperate" climate. Subtropical-man (talk) 13:34, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
With all due respect, to suggest that the Australian Bureau of Meteorology is not a reliable source is absolute nonsense. For Australian climate and weather matters it must be regarded as one the MOST reliable sources. HiLo48 (talk) 21:41, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
I wrote only, Australian Bureau of Meteorology is unreliable in this case, ie naming climates in their area and also explained why. Sydney has temperate climate similarly as Helsinki, Berlin, Glasgow etc? It is absolute nonsense. In 99% looks like a typical humid subtropical climate. Temperatures in Sydney is similar to the African Casablanca and Cape Town with the around 17°C in the coldest month and around 26°C in the warmest month (with the exception of precipitation). But, this cities has subtropical (Mediterranean) climate. It shows that, the ABoM says nonsense. Subtropical-man (talk) 22:16, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
No, you will have to do a lot better than that to convince me that the Australian Bureau of Meteorology, one of THE three World Meteorological Centres of the World Meteorological Organisation, is an unreliable source. HiLo48 (talk) 21:11, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Classifying the south of Australia as "cold temperate" is a ridiculous push. Australia is warm. Australians love to boast that, but do not like the term tropical as it's often associated with warm 3rd world countries (lol). This is the REAL reason why they deny the undeniable fact that they're only tropical and sub-tropical (loool). Tropical zones: between the tropics (in Australian's case, between the tropic of Capricorn) and the equator. sub-tropical zones: not really a precise concept, generally the warmest part of the temperate zone, between the tropics and the paralel 40º. Not only Sydney, but even Melbourne is subtropical. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 04:39, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

The map (I prefer this one because it shows the problem more clearly) is simply misleadingly labelled. Note that it is based on the Köppen classification – it shows Group B climates as "Desert", "Grasslands" and "Subtropical", while these are, of course, all subtropical climates as usually understood (i. e., climates typical of the subtropical zone), and Group A climates as "Tropical" and "Equatorial", while these are, of course, all tropical climates as usually understood (i. e., climates typical of the tropical zone). It is important to be aware that the Group D of Köppen includes continental climates belonging to both the subtropical and temperate (which includes subpolar climates) zones, and that Group C likewise comprises oceanic climates belonging to the subtropical and temperate (including even subpolar climates) zones. It is silly to insist that the deserts and grasslands of Australia do not have subtropical climates (what else? temperate?), or worse, that the far north of Australia is not tropical in climate (what else should it be?).
Most of Australia is subtropical in the conventional sense, the north is tropical, and the southeast (including Tasmania) temperate. As simple as that. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 21:39, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Canaries Islands ?[edit]

The page is protected, I can't not modify it. Canaries islands are (if I don't made a mistake) in the subtropical section.--Newuser0077 (talk) 19:04, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Of course

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The photo captions are politicized.

"European Union" is not a country (promotion of EU federalism).

Morocco is in the geographical/climate region of North Africa not "Africa" (promotion of Afrocentrism; note the captions do use East Asia).

Cyprus and Malta are geographical salients of Europe, not in "Western Asia" and "between Europe and Africa" respectively (promoting expansion of the European Union to Turkey and North Africa). But in this regional climate context an appropriate description would be simply "Mediterranean". — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 07:10, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Lima, Peru[edit]

Lima is solidly in the tropics, 12 degrees south. It has almost no elevation. Geographically, it's absolutely tropical. I understand that there's a level of disagreement over whether this page is referring to geography or climate, but I'd point out that the city has a totally weird climate anyway. In any case, the opening paragraph of the article clearly states that this is about places that are near to the tropics but not between/within them, so if it's going to have places that eminently do not fit that definition, the opening has to be changed. (talk) 12:31, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Same person again; there's a general problem here. The introductory paragraph gives a clear, geographical definition; but then the body of the article ignores that and applies a climatological definition that is never explicitly specified. (talk) 15:41, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Suggest rename: Subtropical climate[edit]

This article is about a purely climatic definition. Sections, such as the article title, implying otherwise lead to confusion. This would bring it into line with the articles "Tropics" and "Tropical climate": this article is clearly analogous to the latter and not the former. It would help to make it clear in the introductory paragraph that the article is about observed climate conditions rather than mathematically defined lines on the Earth's surface, and that areas with subtropical climates may be located well within the tropics, or far into the temperate zone. Finally, it's clear that there is disagreement over the definition; if none has consensus, then as far as is possible all examples (cities, regions, climate charts) should qualify as subtropical under all reasonable definitions.

As a non-specialist who came here for information, it's just not clear enough at the moment what the article is about. (talk) 19:25, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Agree. Lima was wrongly placed as a subtropical dry example in the southern hemisphere. It is a wrong example because it's tropical rather than sub-tropical. Instead It should be placed charters of the following areas: Chile south of the Atacama desert between Antofagasta and Santiago; All the western area of South Africa north of Cape Town up to the Namibian border; The arid Western Australia between the tropic of Capricorn and the mediterranean climate region of Perth, or the Nullarbor Plain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 03:20, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Too many examples[edit]

Subtropicalman - I understand I may have given too many minor EU examples. However, I re-arranged the USA ones in full alphabetical order (it was already in alphabetical order except at the end at which someone had added in random examples), added several important examples and removed an example which was stated twice. As a result I've reverted to my USA examples but kept your EU examples with a few small amendments. Also, I don't fully agree with your treatment of the EU as a federation, it may be a better idea to split the EU examples up into separate European countries. Similarly with the photo captions it may be better to replace EU with the actual country. This article contains far too much bias towards European integration. --Jay942942 (talk) 18:13, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Sorry. Too many examples. Your changes has been reverted. Provide only the most important examples, large cities (urban area above 1 million) or cities of world significance. This article is about subtropics, this article is not list any places with subtropical climate. Provide only the most important examples. Subtropical-man (talk) 18:30, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

All the cities I listed for USA were larger than some of those already listed before my edit (of course you have removed a lot of both mine and the previous editors edits.) Also, Orlando, Raleigh and Miami are not of world significance? They attract a lot of international visitors. Miami has a metropolitan area of over 5 million and an urban area of close to 5 million, Orlando has a metropolitan area of over 2 million and an urban area of over a million and Raleigh has a metropolitan area of over a million. Riverside does not have world significance but has a metropolitan area of more than 4 million and an urban area of more than 1.5 million. Albuquerque has a metropolitan area close to a million and is relatively significant as the largest city in New Mexico. Similarly, Tucson's metropolitan area is very close to a million and is the second largest city in Arizona after Phoenix. Birmingham, Alabama has a metropolitan area of over a million and is the largest city in Alabama. El Paso's metropolitan area is close to a million (or even over a million if you count Ciudad Juarez as part of it's metropolitan area) and has international significance due to it's location. Little Rock is the capital and largest city of Arkansas that has international significance due to the Little Rock Crisis. --Jay942942 (talk) 12:25, 6 June 2012 (UTC) - Miami and Orlando aren't important cities while Richmond is? That's ridiculous. Reverted. --Jay942942 (talk) 16:18, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

At the least, Richmond was the capital of the Confederate States of America which for a time had one of the most powerful armed forces in the world. Pbrower2a (talk) 18:37, 13 October 2013 (UTC) are right. Your list is too long and Miami not have subtropical climate. Miami has tropical climate. Do not make your changes - they are very controversial, first discussion and consensus. Subtropical-man (talk) 18:03, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
What is wrong with Orlando, Riverside and Raleigh? --Jay942942 (talk) 12:15, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
Additionally, why exactly is Miami tropical? Other Wikipedia articles say it is not. --Jay942942 (talk) 19:01, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Tried to find a compromise between you. Feel free to undo. -- (talk) 18:45, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

So the EU Federalist bias is fine? I'm removing it again, the European Union is NOT a country. --Jay942942 (talk) 18:47, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
EU Federalist bias? No, it not. This is your anty EU Federalist bias. Hong Kong and Macau also is not country, and Middle East; however, they also are listed near the EU. Just write "Hong Kong and Macau's separatist bias" or "Middle East Federalist bias"???? Calm down man. Do not make your new changes - they are very controversial, first discussion and consensus. If others users agree to your new cleaning - article will be changed. So far - only a discussion. Subtropical-man (talk) 19:48, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
Your additions of "European Union" throughout the article are also rather controversial. The European Union is an economic and political union made of independent sovereign states. There is no "Middle Eastern union". If someone had written "Arab League" instead of "Middle East", it would be biased. The Middle East by itself is a region. There is no bias in listing "Middle East" in this article. The European Union is not a region. It would be better to merge all the Europe listings (EU, Ukraine, Russia, Turkey) into one, or to list each European country seperately. Hong Kong and Macau are parts of China, but they have significant international recognition and possess a greater degree of independence than the EU does unity. However, I would not object to them being merged into a single China listing.--Jay942942 (talk) 12:27, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
First: you write that the EU is not a country. Ok, Hong-Kong, Macao and Middle East also is not a country - but, they also are listed near the EU. Now you give the arguments that it does not matter, you write Hong-Kong and Macao "are parts of China, but they have significant international recognition". But, this is not country - you change their mind every 5 minutes. By the way, EU also have significant international recognition. European Union is not is an economic and political union made of independent sovereign states. Sovereign states? Part of politics and economics of this states is subject to the European Parliament, therefore this is only partly sovereign states. European Union has own parliament, policy, economy, currency, matters relating to border (abolished internal borders between states, sealing of the EU external borders) and customs (common EU-wide customs matters in relation to other countries); own partial military forces. According to political science - is a perfect example of the confederation (some even call - the federation). Also, EU is discussed on a par with the U.S. and China - in media, in scientific papers or policy documents. Hong-Kong and Macao and Middle East is not, are not compared to any country. Also, the European Union is sovereign, can pursue his own foreign policy and the economy in alliance with other countries of the world or impose sanctions on other countries, also send own military forces (such cases have already been, for example: European Union Force "EUFOR" in Macedonia - 2003, Bosnia - 2004, Congo - 2006 or Chad - 2007). For comparison: Hong-Kong and Macao does not have that option. PS. Now, in the article, name of "European Union" occurs only once - so, further quarrel is trolling. Subtropical-man (talk) 12:58, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
Free speech is trolling?--Jay942942 (talk) 13:36, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
I think, the current article is ok. Subtropical-man (talk) 13:26, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
  • There are far too many examples. Recent feedback suggests that there is another who feels the same way. We have an option to avoid the loss of all of this unreferenced information, if you wish to follow it. Otherwise, it will probably just be gutted. Thegreatdr (talk) 13:08, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Absurd map[edit]

I think that map is ridicolous, it's obvious that the climate of Provence is completely different from the desertic one of Sahara and Australian Outback, the climate of spain and italy is not comparable with that one of Florida, Japan is not the same of Arabia, Coastal south Africa has a very different climate from desertic coast of Chile, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 15:18, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

This article is totally senseless. I don't understand the meaning of that senseless map, It should show where are located the areas of planet earth with subtropical climate, but they are marked areas that are absolutely not subtropical. And I don't understand why in the article there are paragraphs about arid, semi arid and mediterranean climates.

But in particular that map is completly foolish. It clutters together areas with totally different climates that furthermore can't be defined subtropical. For example how can anyone connect mediterranean Europe climate (temperate climate - dry summers - wet winters,springs and autumns) with Florida (tropycal climate - always wet and warm) or Saudi Arabia (arid-desertic- always hot) with Northern New Zealand (temperate climate - always wet) ?????????? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 15:44, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Exist some types of subtropical climate. For example: Florida has humid subtropical, southern European Union has mediterranean, Arabia has subtropical desert. This is a few types of subropical climate. Subtropical-man (talk) 13:31, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

What about San Francisco? Even if it has a thermal regime typical of an oceanic climate, it has subtropical foliage -- including palm trees. San Francisco has plenty of palm trees; Dallas, which has unambiguously mid-latitude foliage, does not. The absence of cold winter temperatures, and not summer heat, defines where palm trees are possible. Pbrower2a (talk) 18:44, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Senseless photos of palms[edit]

I don't know because all the photos in this article show palms!?!?! And i don't understand because are shown artificial parks in Barcelona and Malta. In Malta and in Catalonia, and also in all other parts of Europe don't grow palms in nature, except the dwarf palm, that is a sort of bush. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 02:46, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Very funny :-D Subtropical-man (talk) 13:16, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

All the article about climate in wikipedia are senseless and full of mistakes, anyway the pictures of all those cities with palms used to demonstrated that they are located in subtropical areas are really funny! — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 02:48, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not an art gallery[edit]

I removed the gallery sections. If you're looking to resolve image and chart overloading, galleries are not the solution. Galleries just perpetuate the problem as galleries grow with time as more charts and images are added. For years, wikipedia has a policy stating "wikipedia is not an art gallery". Now it reads "do not overload articles with images". [The related wikilink.] To me, this would include galleries. Images (if uploaded properly) are sorted in commons in such a way that images won't be lost if they are not in this article, as long as they are assigned to the right category. Whenever you work on or edit articles on here, ask yourself, "Would an encyclopedia article look this way?" and you'll have your answer for what should or should not be in wikipedia articles. Food for thought. Thegreatdr (talk) 03:45, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Um, you don't need consensus when it's a wikipedia guideline. Discuss why you believe it fits guidelines. Acting in good faith here. Thegreatdr (talk) 13:12, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not an art gallery, yes, but few pictures in the article is not art gallery. Also, you removed the content. Subtropical-man (talk) 13:24, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
I removed no content, per se. Just a whole bunch of weather tables, which are not tied into the article in any noticeable way. The flora images have no tie in within the article. And why all the palm trees, which can also be found in tropical climates? Wikipedia is not a dumping ground for information, especially when it is unclear how it ties in or is unreferenced, like much of this article. Are you hoping to improve this article to wikipedia standards sometime soon, in a slower manner? Was it the magnitude of the change that was the problem? Wikipedia says to be bold. Thegreatdr (talk) 13:29, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
About tables, this is your private opinion. About this, quote: "And why all the palm trees, which can also be found in tropical climates?" - in the tropics there are other species of palms. Wikipedia says to be bold - yes, but Wikipedia also says: (bold) edit and revert = discussion. Subtropical-man (talk) 13:39, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Would you like me to call in an admin? This is a very easy call. There's no clear tie in to those tables (or the palms for that matter)...the article merely seems to be collecting them. If there were a tie in, one of each would be associated with the relevant section of the article, not buried at the bottom. If these palms are subtropical species, tie them in within the article's prose. Thegreatdr (talk) 13:43, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
You changes is wrong. Please do not write in the intro "with their coldest month averaging between 6 °C (42.8 °F) and 18 °C (64.4 °F)" - this is opinion by one scientist, not all. In addition, for example: Los Angeles has a 20 °C (68.0 °F) in January. Subtropical-man (talk) 13:45, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
If it's opinion, it shouldn't be in the article AT ALL. I was trying to make the lead a summary of the content below. There's not much to work with here with so little referencing. Thegreatdr (talk) 13:47, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
You trying? first talk! Your edition is very controversial and discussion is needed. You get the idea, first write about it in the discussion. Subtropical-man (talk) 13:51, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Let's start with the lead. Per wikipedia policy, the lead needs to be a summary of the article below. When trying to do so, you reverted because the article below is opinion. How can you discuss something so basic? Which do you prefer...article content deletion or undoing your revert of the lead rewording? Thegreatdr (talk) 13:53, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
    • Your editions is very controversial, first: talk and consensus, later - changes. If some your idea be a good, others osers will notice it, and will be made change in the article. Subtropical-man (talk) 13:58, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
      • You say discuss, and then you don't discuss when given a topic. I give up. Thegreatdr (talk) 14:00, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Subtropical-man, you need to explain what you find controversial about the proposed changes. This far you haven't done it.Jeppiz (talk) 14:47, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
        • what is controversial? 1) remove pictures from the article 2) remove templates-tables of temperatures from the article 3) too bold (and wrong) edits in the intro, for example: "with their coldest month averaging between 6 °C (42.8 °F) and 18 °C (64.4 °F)" - this is opinion by one scientist, not all. In addition, for example: Los Angeles has a 20 °C (68.0 °F) in January (coldest month), Brisbane, São Paulo - 22°C etc, so... These three points explained earlier (see above), Jeppiz, please do not blindly defend the Thegreatdr. Subtropical-man (talk) 17:37, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree many of the images should go. It is not clear why they are in (except for being subtropical places, they don't add much; some have only a building and a palm tree….) L.tak (talk) 01:42, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Removal of templates[edit]

Templates cannot be removed without fixing the problem, or discussing them first on the talk page, per wikipedia policy. Let's discuss. Thegreatdr (talk) 13:43, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

You're practicing WP:OWN now by reverting for reverting's sake. This is not your article. I'm contacting some admins. Thegreatdr (talk) 13:46, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Your editions is very controversial and also, you overuse of templates and also, your edits have signs of trolling. Subtropical-man (talk) 13:53, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
It's not trolling when you're trying to improve an article TOWARDS wikipedia standards. the trolling article. Enjoy. Thegreatdr (talk) 14:11, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
This does not change the fact, your editions is very controversial and also, you overuse of templates. Subtropical-man (talk) 14:41, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Once again, what is controversial? Just repeating that everything you don't agree with is controversial is not constructive.Jeppiz (talk) 14:48, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
what is controversial? 1) remove pictures from the article 2) remove templates-tables of temperatures from the article 3) too bold edits (and wrong) in the intro, for example: "with their coldest month averaging between 6 °C (42.8 °F) and 18 °C (64.4 °F)" - this is opinion by one scientist, not all. In addition, for example: Los Angeles has a 20 °C (68.0 °F) in January (coldest month), Brisbane and São Paulo: 22°C, so... These three points explained earlier (see above), Jeppiz, please do not blindly defend the Thegreatdr. Subtropical-man (talk) 17:36, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
The latest edition by Thegreatdr is also controversial, Taipei has a subtropical climate according to the most sources and whole Taiwan is only partly as tropical. Each edition by Thegreatdr in this article is controversial or wrong. Subtropical-man (talk) 17:59, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Actually Subtropicalman: Removing pictures from the article isnt that controversial since this article has too many images in it and most only have a tenious link to the article. Also i would like to see a source that proves your assertion that Taiwan is only partly tropical rather than see your accusing Thegreatdr of making controversial or wrong edits.Jason Rees (talk) 18:30, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
About pictures: for you this article has too many images, for me this article has ideal number of images, other users support this or a second version, so: any new changes of pictures without discussion and consensus will be controversial changes. Second: enough that Taipei, capital of Taiwan is subtropical and this speaks for itself. More, Taiwan is subtropical, according to the Köppen climate classification and some other sources. Subtropical-man (talk) 19:06, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
The reference used within the Taiwan article (which is C class), uses this link that describes the climate as tropical. They may yet lie in subtropical latitudes though, even if their climate is tropical. This is why I posed the question further down the talk page. Please, respond. Thegreatdr (talk) 19:14, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
There are 25 pictures/graphs in this article, thats one heck of a lot for an 20kb article imo even if you think it is "ideal". You just quoting the "Köppen climate classification" is not good enough im afraid, as we need a proper source/link that tells me that per the rules on Original Research and WP:Verification especailly since Thegreatdr has just dug up a source telling me that the climate is tropical.Jason Rees (talk) 19:21, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
I would like to point out that you remove picture about Taipei [1], not whole Taiwan (such photo does not exist), Taipei city is subtropical even if could be different opinions (subtropical vs tropical) about the rest of the country. You make a mistake, it happens (I assume the good will). Subtropical-man (talk) 19:31, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
The Taipei wikipedia article backs up your assertion, but without a reference. I'll keep an eye out for the reference, since so much of the article is needing of referencing. Thegreatdr (talk) 19:36, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
I added a few sources to the article of Taipei. Subtropical-man (talk) 19:54, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Very good. The best article improvements involve editing related articles as well. Thegreatdr (talk) 20:17, 24 March 2013 (UTC)


This question may seem out of place, but should areas such as Nashville, TN and Greensboro, NC in the U.S. that are, according to the new 1981–2010 normals (these are in general not averages), borderline (i.e. one or both of March and November average between 10.0 and 10.3 °C) be included? GotR Talk 21:47, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Only if there is a reference. We will have to address all of these highly specific locations being within the article. They could always make up a separate list article. Thegreatdr (talk) 21:53, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Does NOAA alone count? Or is this OR, as the OWNers of Sydney are too happy to point about (vis-à-vis the stupid debate on temperate vs. (humid) subtropical)? GotR Talk 22:36, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Whatever reference you can find, outside of blogs. We're going to try to comply with wikipedia policy here. Whatever original research or unreferenced lines contained in this article will be purged if referencing cannot be found. Thegreatdr (talk) 22:44, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Now I'm beginning to understand your question. It would ultimately be best to find book references for various US cities, or NOAA websites stating "BLA BLA has a subtropical climate". You're right...on wikipedia, this could be construed as original research. Thegreatdr (talk) 23:25, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

A proposed way forward[edit]

The current article organization seems to be in duplicate, and strongly weighted towards climate (particularly Koppen) over geography. It talks about temperatures, rainfall, and flora (barely changed (only slightly rearranged) since this time yesterday), then has separate sections that go into more detail about the same topics. My proposal is to merge the lower sections talking about the subtropical climate regimes with the temperature, rainfall, and flora sections already established above. In the meantime, I'll search for referencing to see what is supportable, and what needs elimination. The goal is to get the at least one of the climate articles to the GA standard; why not this one? The lead should be in flux while referencing is found. Any feedback is appreciated. Thegreatdr (talk) 19:27, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

GA standard for this article and topic? I estimate a 5% chance. Better article of Mediterranean climate or Humid subtropical climate. Subtropics this concept too mixed, inaccurate and has a little chance on GA. Subtropical-man (talk) 19:37, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
If you work with David and not against him and help him find the details required to expand this article then im sure this article could be expanded out to meet the GA Criteria. As a starting point it might be worth finding out why the WMO regional centres for the SPAC (BoM, Nadi, Metservice and Niwa etc) consider the Subtropics to start at 25S.Jason Rees (talk) 19:46, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
I found an article mentioning that the tropics have expanded out to about the 26th parallel between 1982 and 2007, and have added it into the article. Perhaps this is why. Thegreatdr (talk) 20:48, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
I created Subtropical (disambiguation), with many links to related articles, for example: about subtropical cyclones/storms, subtropical flora and fauna and other. I hope that this will help to expand article. Subtropical-man (talk) 21:13, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
It is better than what was at the top previously. There's much to sort through in that disambiguation page. Thegreatdr (talk) 21:25, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
  • I have submitted the article for peer review. Normally, an article in a better state of development (B class) is submitted. In this case, it seems wiser to get outside opinions sooner rather than later. If memory serves, it will still take a week for feedback from human reviewers. A bit of referencing was added today, and the lead was redone. Some restructuring and improvement was done to the top half of the article, but the bottom half was basically left as-is, with much referencing still needed. A couple of the edits made today to help consolidate the lower sections with the upper sections were reverted. There had been enough drama for one day. It may take a while to get new sets of eyes on this article. Maybe the article's greater visibility within the meteorology project will help out in this regard. Thegreatdr (talk) 03:30, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

What to do with all the locations[edit]

I propose the creation of a list class article titled List of locations with a subtropical climate, where all this highly specific information could be placed. If this article is ever going to get to C or B class, let alone GA, we need to partition off this long list. Such lists in the other climate articles have been essentially eliminated, because they foster routine additions, usually without supporting references. We could always link to the list article from this article. As it is, the general locations of subtropical climates lies in as many as three locations within this article, and this would help in that regard. Thoughts? Thegreatdr (talk) 21:56, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

To begin, I think within the comments in the code, there should be hard population cutoffs, with exceptions for climate types that are extremely rare in the first place, such as Ds. Some of the locations in even the Koppen article are possibly not well-known (as in state/provincial capital and/or #1/2 in population within state/province) even within their own countries. As you know, there also is the potential problem with due weight—Americans who are frequently IGNORANT of the outside world (even Canada) pile on a massive list of locations when a few classic examples/anchor points, i.e. Tampa for equatorward, Atlanta for interior/non-Deep South, and New York (and I hate when DC/Balt are used. as one has to move extremely far out in their suburbs to even encounter the 0 °C isotherm, and most if not all long-time resident will testify to the lack of serious cold and snow) for poleward boundary will be sufficient illustration of the Cfa regime in North America. GotR Talk 22:46, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
We do need to avoid POV, even if it is split off as a list article. I know too well about the DC metropolitan area. There's a 1-2 month difference between the average first and last freeze dates between National Airport (nearly surrounded by the Potomac within a virtual marine exposure) and places about 25 miles away in nearly all directions (some might even say 2 miles away makes a huge difference from that location). The advent of ASOS only magnifies the snow measurement problem at National Airport. Thegreatdr (talk) 22:55, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
In light of your comments at 23:30 US EDT (03:30 UTC), I think a good starting point for the bottom half would be, for each region/nation, first discuss in somewhat broad generality, as I have done with the US, mainland China, and Taiwan. This will serve to immediately cut down on the number of locations to be listed out. GotR Talk 03:49, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
That would lead to a better article format, and would more easily allow us to reference the section. Will await a little more feedback before progressing. Thegreatdr (talk) 13:04, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
I have split off the specific locations into its own list article. We already talk generically about what is within the subtropics within this article. Thegreatdr (talk) 22:57, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

A second reorganization[edit]

The climate charts have been moved to their respective sections further up the article. I saw this done in the Earth's magnetic field article, and thought it was more effective, if we're going to keep all these tables. I also moved images to their respective sections, and swapped out some for an image which was more relevant to the nearby section. See what you think. Thegreatdr (talk) 23:21, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Map is incorrectly labelled[edit]

The map shows the 35th parallels, but has them labelled as the 38th parallels. The lines shown are clearly not the 38th parallel as the north line does not intersect the border of North and South Korea, while the south line does not intersect New Zealand. The article, prior to my edit, also referred to the 38th parallel with a link which lead to the 35th parallel disambiguation page. The rest of the article also refers to the 35th parallel; hence it appears that the map is correct except for its labeling, and therefore must be edited and labelled correctly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:02, 5 August 2013 (UTC)


"The subtropics have been historically defined as lying between the Tropic of Cancer and Tropic of Capricorn, located at 23.45° north and south latitude respectively." First of all, it's the tropics, of course. Second, what, then, is the tropics definition doing on the subtropics page? It's the poleward boundaries that may be of more interest and subject to discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 14:58, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Add NYC climate chart to the part Humid Variation in Subtropics article Plz[edit]

Plz add the NYC climate chart to the part Humid Variation in Subtropics. Because I want to see it. You can Remove it in a year. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:33, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Add NYC climate chart to the part Humid Variation in Subtropics article Plz[edit]

Plz add the NYC climate chart to the part Humid Variation in Subtropics. Because I want to see it. You can Remove it in a year. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:40, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

City name climate chart edited[edit]

I edited the climate of Tampa to New York City because I live in this Bigger and drier city. NYC has Moist summers and dry winters same as the seasons in Florida. (talk) 14:06, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

The first map shows 35 degrees as extent of subtropics[edit]

While the text gives 40 degrees. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 20:30, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

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