Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Linguistics

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WikiProject Linguistics (Rated Project-class)
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Welcome to the talk page for WikiProject Linguistics. This is the hub of the Wikipedian linguist community; like the coffee machine in the office, this page is where people get together, share news, and discuss what they are doing. Feel free to ask questions, make suggestions, and keep everyone updated on your progress. New talk goes at the bottom, and remember to sign and date your comments by typing four tildes (~~~~). Thanks!

Pronunciation of Nehme[edit]

Hi, can anyone with reasonable Levantine Arabic phonetic knowledge confirm that نعمة‎ (Nehme) is pronounced [ˈnæʕme]? Thanks in advance. Nehme1499 (talk) 23:28, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

I don't understand the correspondence between Arabic alphabet ع and Latin alphabet "h"... AnonMoos (talk) 19:13, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
I don't know why نعمة‎ has been transliterated as Nehme to be honest. Without considering "Nehme", in you opinion is [ˈnæʕme] the correct Levantine Arabic (more specifically, Lebanese Arabic) pronunciation of نعمة‎? Nehme1499 (talk) 20:00, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
I've found this video of someone pronouncing نعمة‎ ("Maya Nehme") at 1:37. Also here at 0:05 ("Peter Nehme") and here right at the beginning ("Eliana Nehme"). Nehme1499 (talk) 20:07, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Familiar with English Word-Formation?[edit]

I was wondering if anyone was familiar with Laurie Bauer's English Word-Formation and wanted to help expand the article. It's currently up for deletion and I've done as much as I can to flesh the article out from the initial few sentences it was, but it needs more work from someone who has actually read this. I'm also stuck with what little I can find in paywall previews, which also poses an issue. If anyone wants to help build the article up that would be wonderful. I think that notability has already been established in the AfD so what really needs to be done here is to expand it. ReaderofthePack(formerly Tokyogirl79) (。◕‿◕。) 23:51, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

Pirhayati, you launched this article when it had a total of one (1) sentence. You created the article on Bauer's book Morphological Productivity; this currently has a total of one (1) sentence. (I imagine that a PROD or AfD for it is coming soon.) You launched the article on The Oxford Reference Guide to English Morphology (a book cowritten by Bauer) when it had a total of one (1) sentence. You redlinked Bauer's Rethinking Morphology. Instead of creating a one-sentence stub on Rethinking Morphology (or anything else), how about turning the article Morphological Productivity into something worthwhile? -- Hoary (talk) 09:13, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
I'll expand them in a week. Ali Pirhayati (talk) 08:06, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
Looking forward to it! -- Hoary (talk) 09:50, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
Two weeks have gone by, Ali Pirhayati. During this period, you've found time to make dozens of edits. The article The Oxford Reference Guide to English Morphology now has two sentences, but one of them is merely about publication. The article Morphological Productivity has one sentence. -- Hoary (talk) 08:41, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
I added a synopsis to Morphological Productivity for now. Ali Pirhayati (talk) 09:05, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Danish 'soft d'[edit]

I believe that the Danish 'soft d' (I can't find the name commonly used by linguists but on Wikipedia it's named Voiced velarized laminal alveolar approximant) should have its own article on Wikipedia. Right now the phoneme is mentioned in Voiced dental fricative in a misplaced manner. I'm not strong on Danish phonology, so I'm a bit hesitant from creating a page for it. --Ahmedo Semsurî (talk) 11:45, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

@Ahmedo Semsurî: It's listed on alveolar and postalveolar approximants. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 13:18, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Peter Matthews[edit]

Unfortunately, Peter Hugoe Matthews is just a name to me -- er, no, he isn't even that; though I would recognize Peter Matthews (linguist). And while a glance at the stub about him might suggest that it has one reference, in reality it has none. Though various gnomes and bots have tinkered with it, the stub has essentially snoozed for over a decade. Anyone here know anything about the man? -- Hoary (talk) 02:25, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Anna Maria Di Sciullo[edit]

Similarly, Anna Maria Di Sciullo is eminent, and eminently encyclopedia-worthy; but her article is an unsourced CV. Anyone here up to the task of turning it into something decent? -- Hoary (talk) 13:09, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

RfC of interest[edit]

The RfC located here may be of interest to the members of this project. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:54, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Proposal to merge four articles into two[edit]

Hello. Last year we successfully merged near-front vowel with front vowel and near-back vowel with back vowel. I want to expand upon that (now implemented) proposition: let's merge near-open vowel with open vowel and near-close vowel with close vowel:

  • Pairs of the former type are hardly ever contrastive. In German, /ɐ/ is an unstressed-only vowel and speakers are unable to distinguish it from the ordinary short /a/, which suggests that the two vowels are not in real contrast (even if they were, the former can be safely regarded to be an open-mid vowel, like the long lax /ɛː/). Plus, /ɐ/ can just as convincingly be analyzed as /ər/. In Slovene, /ɐ/ (usually transcribed /ʌ/) can contrast with the open central /a/. This may be the only language in which that is the case, but I think that Slovene /ʌ/ can be safely regarded as an open-mid vowel. The Weert dialect of Limburgish is sometimes claimed to feature five phonemic vowel heights, with /iː/, /eː/, /ɛː/, /æː/ and /aː/ being genuine front vowels, but /eː/ is a phonetic diphthong [eə] and /aː/ is front-central, rather than purely front (Verhoeven (2007) analyzes /aː/ in the Hamont dialect, which has a similar vowel inventory, as a central vowel and considers Hamont Limburgish to feature four phonemic heights).
  • And so are pairs of the latter type. Danish doesn't feature phonemic near-close vowels - their [e̝ː] (conventionally written ⟨⟩) is phonemically close-mid, [] (conventionally written ⟨ɛː⟩) is phonemically open-mid and [ɛː] (conventionally written ⟨æː⟩) is a phonemic open front vowel that contrasts with the open central [äː] (conventionally written ⟨ɑː⟩), which is phonemically open back. Sotho and some other languages spoken in Africa may indeed feature genuine close/near-close/close-mid triplets, but they seem to only be front unrounded and back rounded.
  • Many of the near-close vowels (especially [ɪ] and [ʊ]) are phonemically close, just as [æ] is often phonemically open.
  • Near-open vowel is a completely unsourced article, whereas close vowel has only one source. By merging near-open vowel with open vowel and near-close vowel with close vowel we'd improve sourcing by doing almost nothing extra (the bit about German and Slovene would, of course, have to be added manually).

So: is Sotho, some other African languages and Slovene enough to keep those articles? IMO no. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 18:29, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

Phonemicity is all well and good, but these are phonetic articles. The better question, at least for me, is can we still cover all of the relevant information in just two articles instead of four? I think we can and I also think it's better to contain that information into fewer places so that we don't needlessly spread out the related bits of knowledge. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 18:57, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
@Kbb2: what is your brief and neutral statement? It's too long for Legobot (talk · contribs) to handle correctly, so nothing is showing at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Language and linguistics apart from a link. But in any case, RfC is not for merge requests, for which a separate process exists. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 14:36, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
@Redrose64: I've removed the RfC tag, thanks. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 16:44, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
What the hell? Some languages, such as English ;), contrast [ʊ] against [u]. Obviously near-close vowel may not be merged, especially if near-back vowel redirects to “back vowel”. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 16:57, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
@Incnis Mrsi: English /ʊ/ is a checked vowel, whereas /u/ is a free vowel and may be subject to diphthongization. This isn't a case of a near-close vowel contrasting with a close one but of a lax-tense contrast among close back vowels. I'm not aware of any English dialect that'd feature phonemic near-close vowels like Sotho. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 17:30, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
When a speaker pronounces both “fool” and “full” as /ful/, we can’t hear whether the vowel is “free” or “checked” if vowel length distinction is erased too. The back/near-back distinction alone is not phonemical… the close/near-close distinction alone is not phonemical… but, whenever all three are gone, how can Kbb2 tell which qualities of the three are not essential? Why namely lax/tense is important whereas close/near-close is not? Incnis Mrsi (talk) 18:03, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
@Incnis Mrsi: Hardly any dialect differentiates the phonetic backness of /ʊ/ vs. /u/ as near-back vs. back. You're mistaking the official IPA descriptions of the symbolsʊ⟩ and ⟨u⟩ with the English phonemes /ʊ/ and /u/ which have a number of their own allophones.
The free-checked (and, to a lesser extent, lax-tense) distinction isn't something you "hear", it's a type of phonological differentiation of vowels. In English, /ʊ/ differs from /u/ in a number of ways:
- /u/ is most often slightly (or more than slightly) diphthongized, whereas /ʊ/ is produced with the tongue slightly lowered (it can be as low as close-mid, so it's not necessarily near-close) and the lips not-quite-so-rounded as is the case with /u/.
- There may be some additional difference in backness involved, but not of the near-back vs. back type. It could be central /u/ vs. near-back /ʊ/, central /u/ vs. back /ʊ/, front /u/ vs. (near-)back /ʊ/ etc.
The full-fool merger is a lax-tense neutralization before /l/, yes. But it's not necessarily phonemic. In cockney, for instance, "full" is often neutralized with "fool" as [foʊ], but "fuller" is pronounced [ˈfʊlɐ] (phonemically /ˈfʊlə/) and "fooling" [ˈfʊʉlɪn] (phonemically /ˈfulɪŋ/). I wouldn't consider that a phonemic neutralization.
Also, don't forget that some dialects of English (RP, Australian) feature phonemic vowel length. In those dialects, /ʊ/ is the short counterpart of /u/ (typically written /uː/ or /ʉː/). Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 18:27, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
I don't see how the legitimacy (or lack thereof) of the categories "near-close" and "near-open" could be relevant here. The fact the IPA and some linguists have used the concepts is enough to discuss them on Wikipedia. The question is whether they deserve their own articles in view of WP:N—and I concur with the proposal, we might as well merge them with Close vowel and Open vowel. Nardog (talk) 18:42, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Alright, if there aren't any objections I'll merge them in the next few days. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 15:28, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Can Kbb2 explain why should near-close vowel be merged namely to “close” not to “close-mid vowel”? Why should near-open vowel be merged namely to “open” not to “open-mid vowel”? Incnis Mrsi (talk) 10:06, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
@Incnis Mrsi: That's no problem:
The IPA used to consider ⟨i, y, u⟩ as best substitutes for ⟨ɪ, ʏ, ʊ⟩ whenever using the latter wasn't needed.
In English, German, Norwegian, Portuguese, Russian, Swedish, etc. ⟨ɪ, ʏ, ʊ⟩ represent phonological lax close vowels (phonemic or allophonic).
ɪ, ʏ, ʊ⟩ do not represent sounds but a range of sounds in IPA ([ɪ] can be near-close front, near-close near-front or close-mid near-front, [ʏ] near-close near-front or close-mid near-front and [ʊ] near-close back, near-close near-back and close-mid near-back), but the close-mid realizations seem to be rarer than the near-close ones. The canonical values of ⟨ɪ, ʏ, ʊ⟩ (near-close near-front, ditto and near-close near-back) seem to be predominant.
æ⟩ represents a phonological open vowel in all languages I'm aware of. The near-open variants of vowels transcribed with ⟨ɛ⟩ are usually transcribed with, well, ⟨ɛ⟩, which is a correct transcription (if we were to ignore ⟨æ⟩ as a non-cardinal symbol, the near-open front unrounded vowel could be transcribed with either ⟨ɛ⟩ or ⟨a⟩. I imagine that the older IPA practice was to prefer the latter).
ɐ⟩ is usually treated as an open vowel in English, Danish, German, Luxembourgish, Slovene etc. In German dialectology this vowel is referred to as the a-schwa, among other names. Native speakers of German are usually unable to distinguish it from their open central /a/.
The articles about [ɶ], [ɑ] and [ɒ] already cover open and near-open vowels. I don't think that anyone would expect a separate article for them or for them to be moved to the articles about [œ], [ʌ] and [ɔ]. This is another proof that near-open is more of a type of an open vowel, rather than an open-mid one. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 10:28, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Why don't we merge all these articles into just Vowel height and Vowel backness? These articles are bound to be stubs forever, while Vowel height and Vowel backness, despite being redirects, already receive quite a few incoming links and would make nice counterparts to Roundedness, filling the gaps in the concepts used to classify vowels. That would also make it easier to explain or introduce related phenomena like chain shifts. Nardog (talk) 13:09, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

@Nardog: That's probably a better solution. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 14:55, 12 August 2019 (UTC)


Could use more eyes. I'm trying to make the lede readable, accessible, and understandable. It's an already-confusing, neologism. A passionate editor is insisting on edit-warring to add comparisons to multiple languages in the second part of the lead, not all of which may apply, in exactly the order and presentation form they want. The article, and especially these sections, could really use input from those used to making linguistics accessible to the average reader. I'm really not interested in edit-warring with this person, but I don't think they're helping. Thanks. - CorbieV 23:33, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

[ɪ] needs attention[edit]

(Split from one of the discussions above - Kbb2)

As a related note: we see where [ɪ] points currently. At near-close front unrounded vowel #Features one can read: Its vowel backness is front, which means the tongue is positioned as far forward as possible blah blah blah (note that articles about rounded vowels have a disclaimer that “rounded front vowels are often centralized, which means that often they are in fact near-front”). Is Kbb2 aware that, in Ukrainian, /ɪ/ denotes something rather central (definitely not front)? And what do we currently see in Help:IPA/Ukrainian, indeed? Not a good thing, and IMHO fixing mistakes has higher priority than mergist stuff. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 14:27, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

@Incnis Mrsi: Near-close front unrounded vowel covers three varieties of [ɪ]: near-close near-front, near-close front and close-mid near-front. See the lede. As far as the "features" section is concerned, it probably does need fixing. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 15:21, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
Perhaps it would be better for the article to revert to near-close near-front unrounded vowel then? Incnis Mrsi (talk) 15:31, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
@Incnis Mrsi: It would, but for a different reason. See below. (By the way, "front" doesn't mean "fully front" but "more front than back" [rather than between fully front and fully back, which would be "central"). Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 17:09, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
Again, if “more front than back” (but not necessarily front sensu stricto), then “… the tongue is positioned as far forward as possible in the mouth without creating a constriction …” is a lie. Perhaps some parameter for {{front vowel}} should disable that “as possible”? Incnis Mrsi (talk) 20:56, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Can Nardog report about recent changes in {{Front_vowel}} and {{Back_vowel}}? I made them to accept an option, whereas Nardog undone it. Is the parameter for switching not necessary anymore and why namely? Incnis Mrsi (talk) 05:20, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

@Incnis Mrsi: I didn't undo it, I just made them display simply "positioned forward/back in the mouth" instead of "as forward/back as possible" regardless. I made similar edits to {{Close vowel}} and {{Open vowel}} as well. The templates described cardinal vowels, which are merely reference points. Vowels actually spoken in languages, such as those listed in the articles that use the templates, are rarely made with such peripheral configurations, which would be at odds with language's general tendency to minimize required effort. Nardog (talk) 05:50, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

We probably have too many vowel articles[edit]

Hello. I think that we have too many vowel articles, and at the same time too few to be consistent in the way we represent vowels on Wikipedia. I'll explain what I mean.

The article open back unrounded vowel currently covers four variants of [ɑ]: open back (close to cardinal [ɑ] or identical), open near-back, near-open back and near-open near-back. That's four variants of [ɑ] in one article. The article about the open front [ɶ] also covers open and near-open variants. This is how it should be: the vowel articles on Wikipedia aren't about cardinal vowels but vowels in world's languages that are close to any given cardinal vowel (except for vowels like [ɪ]).

Also, we don't cover all combinations of height/backness/roundedness in separate vowel articles on Wikipedia. That's another inconsistency. Here's my proposal, divided into parts:

Regarding true-mid vowels

(1) Merge the articles about true-mid vowels with those about close-mid ones:

...and create separate sections for true-mid vowels that contrast with close-mid ones (or close-mid and open-mid ones) in those articles.
Reason: The true-mid [, ø̞, ] rarely contrast with their close-mid and/or open-mid counterparts. There are obscure dialects or languages such as the Amstetten dialect of Bavarian or Kensiu that contrast three heights of mid vowels. Danish contrasts close-mid /ø/ with true-mid /œ/ (which is lowered to open-mid or near-open when in contact with /r/). These contrasts seem to be much rarer than those between close-mid and open-mid vowels, as in French, German or Italian. The IPA recommends that in cases like this (where the quality of a vowel is in-between two or more cardinal values), the simplest symbol be used unless there are convincing reasons (a phonemic contrast, traditional transcription in dialectology, etc.) to do otherwise. ⟨œ⟩ and ⟨ø⟩ are probably equally "complex", but ⟨e⟩ and ⟨oare simpler than ⟨ɛ⟩ and ⟨ɔ⟩ because they're ordinary Latin letters. Furthermore, the mid back rounded vowel is probably more of a variant of the close-mid [o] than just a vowel in-between [o] and [ɔ], because like [o] and unlike [ɔ] it can contrast with the (near-)open [ɒ] (which can be considered a subtype of [ɔ] as they sound so similar to each other) by height alone - see this article by Geoff Lindsey and our vowel charts (Geordie is probably no exception - the contrast between /ɒː/, /ɔː/, /oː/ and /uː/ is rather unstable). Lindsey's research might be a proof that essentially all (or nearly all) contrasts between rounded back vowels are subtypes of a /u–o–ɔ/ contrast, not matter the exact height, backness, length, etc.
Neither close-mid front unrounded vowel nor close-mid back rounded vowel cover *just* vowels in the close-mid front/back area but also their centralized counterparts (near-front in the case of [e] and near-back in the case of [o]). Also, compare e.g. File:Estonian vowel chart.svg with File:Finnish monophthongs chart.svg. Neither Estonian /e, ø, o/ nor Finnish /e, ø, o/ are exactly in-between cardinal [e, ø, o] and [ɛ, œ, ɔ] but closer than that (closer to the close-mid cardinals), it's just that the Finnish vowels (listed in the true-mid articles) are a tad more open than the Estonian ones (at least that's what the vowel charts suggest). This might suggest that there are some WP:CONTENTFORK issues with those articles.
Regarding near-close vowels

(2) Rename the articles about the mid-centralized cardinals [i, y, u]:

...and move fully front and fully back near-close (un)rounded vowels to close front unrounded vowel and close back rounded vowel, respectively (we don't list any fully front variants of the near-close near-front rounded vowel on WP and the distinction between front and near-front rounded vowels is mostly meaningless anyway). The near-close near-front rounded vowels typically transcribed with ⟨y⟩ (those in Dutch, French and Hungarian) should be moved back to close front rounded vowel and we should specify their height there.
Reason: The articles about [ɪ] and [ʊ] shouldn't cover peripheral vowels but only the centralized ones, which means that we probably should rename near-close front unrounded vowel and near-close back rounded vowel back to near-close near-front unrounded vowel and near-close near-back rounded vowel, which are the official names of the IPA symbols ⟨ɪ⟩ and ⟨ʊ⟩. Fully peripheral near-close vowels, at least of the unrounded front and rounded back type, are just variants of [i] and [u]. The older IPA practice was to prefer the symbols ⟨i, y, u⟩ over ⟨ɪ, ʏ, ʊ⟩ and use the latter when necessary. Also, when a language contrasts near-close front/back with close front/back vowels based on height alone, the near-close front/back vowels are almost never written with ⟨ɪ, ʊ⟩ but ⟨e, o⟩. Near-close front rounded vowel should probably be renamed to near-close near-front rounded vowel for consistency.

(3) Merge the articles about the near-close central vowels with those about close central ones:

Reason: [ɨ, ʉ] are the closest cardinal vowels, and the vowels listed in close central unrounded vowel and close central rounded vowel may or may not be the same as the corresponding cardinal vowels. "Near-close" is just slightly lower than fully close and those vowels have never been assigned separate IPA symbols, unlike [ɪ, ʏ, ʊ].
Regarding schwa-like vowels

(4) Merge the articles about (often non-contrastive) schwa-like sounds into schwa:

Reason: Scholars have simply not caught up yet with the latest reforms of the IPA. In English, ⟨ɜ⟩ is used for a vowel that can be open-mid, true-mid or close-mid (it's often just true-mid) in accordance with one of the former IPA definitions (or the former definition) of ⟨ɜ⟩. In Swedish ⟨ɵ⟩ is true-mid rather than close-mid. The symbol ⟨ə⟩ does *not* denote a specifically true-mid unrounded central vowel but just a schwa, a vowel in the general mid central area that can be rounded or unrounded. English schwa is an unrounded close-mid-to-open-mid vowel. Romanian and Sindhi schwas are open-mid, yet they're most typically transcribed with ⟨ə⟩ which is supposedly a vowel between close-mid and open-mid (that's what the current IPA chart suggests, very falsely in my view). IMO we're giving WP:UNDUE weight to something that simply isn't distinguished that strongly in the literature. WP:CONTENTFORK might also be an issue.
Also, should we ever do that, we should move the open-mid central unrounded vowels that are typically transcribed with ⟨ɐ⟩ back to near-open central vowel.
Check User:Kbb2/Schwa to see how the table in that article would (or could) work.
Regarding open front vowels

(5) Merge the articles about open front vowels into one article:

Reason: A separate article for the open front rounded vowel might violate WP:UNDUE. It's an extremely rare vowel that doesn't occur as a phoneme in any language, it just happens to be one of the cardinal vowels (we already have an article about them). Plus, Danish [ɶ] (a canonical example of that vowel) is actually near-open, not open. Also, the distinction between [æ] and the front [a] isn't very clear as they sound awfully similar to each other. I think that as long as we differentiate [æ]/[a] from the central [ä] (which does sound different) that's good enough. [æ] should've never been assigned a separate IPA symbol by the way, and it was Anglocentric of the Association to do so. One of the reasons I'd like to see those three merged is that if we merged open front unrounded vowel with open front rounded vowel we'd have a discrepancy - the near-open variant would be covered in the case of the rounded vowel but not in the case of the unrounded vowel. Plus, the open front unrounded vowel might be transcribed with ⟨æ⟩ anyway.

Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 17:07, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree that our coverage of vowels, and perhaps even consonants, needs to be improved. Simply put, every symbol on the IPA chart does not need its own dedicated article because not every sound is notable enough to warrant its own article. This is especially true of vowels because outside the cardinal vowels, there's no firm boundaries for their categorization. Further, the depth of coverage we can go into on each vowel is limited, making many of these permastubs, but we can give far more comprehensive and helpful if we organize our coverage by broad natural classes rather than particular phones. I'd like to propose a far more radical scheme of 5 comprehensive articles:
Front vowels
Back vowels
High vowels
Low vowels
Central vowels
These, with some obvious overlap, will cover describing the vowels in their domain. Vowels which have substantial coverage in their own right, like schwa can be spun out and summarized in these articles, but in general individual phones would not have their own articles unless they're notable. I think these articles should not include the tables of languages which have certain phonemic sounds, and instead we should have those lists at a dedicated page such as Phonemic status of ɜ or List of languages with phonemic ɜ. This will help divide our coverage between generalist and specialist articles, limit the number of pages that need to be maintained, and maximize use for our readers.
All this said, I still support Kbb2's proposal as an improvement over the status quo. Wug·a·po·des​ 17:26, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
I'm generally in favor of the proposed mergers but I would keep Mid central vowel. Schwa talks about phonological development rather than the phonetic sound(s), and the majority of its content is better merged with Vowel reduction or something rather than with Mid central vowel, and then Schwa can be turned into a redirect to Mid central vowel. Nardog (talk) 00:17, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Support merging articles on similar vowels. Not every sound in every spoken language deserves an entire article on its own, partially as many really aren't that notable. If they do get their own articles anyway, we will eventually just end up with hundreds of permastubs. Geolodus (talk) 15:04, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
Support per nom. —Yours sincerely, Soumyabrata (talksubpages) 14:34, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

IPA/Lebanese Arabic[edit]

Hi, could someone please create the page Help:IPA/Lebanese Arabic, along with the template {{IPA-apc}}? Thanks, Nehme1499 (talk) 00:41, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Created {{IPA-apc}} as a future IPA template. Creating the corresponding key would require being quite familiar with the language and its phonology, so, if you are, perhaps start with copying one of the existing keys for Arabic varieties (Egyptian, Hejazi, Tunisian) and adapting it to Lebanese Arabic. Nardog (talk) 21:39, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Unfortunately I am not an expert on phonology or on the correct symbology. However, an article called Lebanese Arabic exists with various tables for the pronunciation of sounds, so I imagine that the information is there. I would create Help:IPA/Lebanese Arabic myself, but I'm afraid of messing something up. I'm not requesting it to be done ASAP, but still I feel it would be nice to add Lebanese Arabic to the IPA tables. Thanks, Nehme1499 (talk) 23:15, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Nomination of Portal:Language for deletion[edit]

A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Language is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Language until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America1000 23:04, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Nomination of Portal:English language for deletion[edit]

A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:English language is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:English language (3rd nomination) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America1000 23:04, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

  • Concluded. From the discussion: "The result of the discussion was: delete." --Thnidu (talk) 15:44, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

IPA for how to pronounce Adut Akech?[edit]

Hi friends. I asked this at the Reference Desk, but the team there is drawing a blank so I thought of asking here. Can anyone help with a sourced IPA for Adut Akech's name? It would be especially relevant in this article since there is a mention of her Australian teacher being unable to pronounce her name. Thank you, (talk) 21:23, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Done. Although the newscasters and interviewers I found called her with the first name rhyming with boot, her own pronunciation clearly rhymes with foot. I couldn't find a source where she enunciates her last name, but the stress certainly seems to fall on the second syllable. Nardog (talk) 23:00, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
Thank you very much! (How weird an Australian couldn't pronounce that.) (talk) 17:54, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Comparative tables of sample words[edit]

There are articles dedicated to language families which display tables comparing sample words in different languages of the language family (for instance, see Eastern Romance languages). Do members of this project think that editors are required to verify the list of compared words with references to reliable sources about the language family, or can we freely choose the words to be compared (and we should only verify the proper form in each language with a reference to a dictionary)? Thank you. Borsoka (talk) 02:21, 3 September 2019 (UTC) (I also raised this question on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages. Borsoka (talk) 09:33, 4 September 2019 (UTC))

There is no clear line. WP:V states it is "any material challenged or likely to be challenged" that requires citations. Of course there being citations is always absolutely better than no citations, but just because something isn't cited doesn't mean it's categorically unacceptable. Nardog (talk) 22:59, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
Definitely not required but ideally these examples should be coming from some published source. I know that some families and areas have comprehensive tables of swadesh lists (Tryon published a really good one for Vanuatuan languages that was 400 pages long and covered around 200 languages) which can be drawn from and would be preferable to constructing our own. Nardog is spot on; while citations would be nice, unless there's a dispute about whether a word is actually part of that language or a dispute about what the transcription or phonemic analysis should be, I don't think a citation is required. It goes without saying that any entry on these tables should be verifiable in a dictionary of the language so unless there's some reason that isn't the case or there is some dispute or complex argument being made, I don't see a lack of citations for words as a huge problem for verifiability. Wug·a·po·des​ 02:31, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
@Nardog:, @Wugapodes:, thank you for your above comments. My main concern is that if we can freely choose the words to be compared (namely, without verifying the selection of those specific words), we are engaged in original research. Borsoka (talk) 01:43, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, I would think these tables of cognates should be coming from published sources, not just synthesized from individual dictionaries of particular languages. The latter feels a bit too much like OR to me. Umimmak (talk) 01:57, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Articles with links to DAB pages[edit]

I have collected a batch of articles with language- and linguistics-related links to DAB pages which would benefit from expert attention. Search for 'disam' in read mode, and for '{{d' in edit mode; and if you solve any of these puzzles, post {{done}} here.

Not all may be solvable, but every little helps. Thanks in advance, Narky Blert (talk) 19:51, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Challenging IvanScrooge98 in the area of IPA transcriptions of Germanic languages[edit]

There's a thread on Administrators' Noticeboard regarding IvanScrooge98's contributions in the area of IPA transcriptions of Germanic languages. You might want to take a look at it. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 07:17, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Unmerge all of the vowel articles[edit]

There are a lot of vowels, and as a person who uses them, find it unhelpful when they're merged away!